trev
1st team skipper
In Matt We Trust
Posts: 2,477
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Post by trev on Dec 5, 2018 10:19:35 GMT
Nothing to add to erudite observations of my learned friends, save to point out the massive irony in the self-appointed defenders of free speech lambasting others for making reference to a novel about the suppression of free speech...
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Post by Andy K on Dec 5, 2018 10:42:47 GMT
Nothing to add to erudite observations of my learned friends, save to point out the massive irony in the self-appointed defenders of free speech lambasting others for making reference to a novel about the suppression of free speech... Hopefully an illustrated version will come out soon, with visuals provided by Eric Carle.
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Post by sallycat on Dec 5, 2018 10:50:30 GMT
Is he still around? He must be ancient by now
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Post by timbo on Dec 5, 2018 11:47:40 GMT
I think discussing players' performance is fine, but talking about who we think might lose their jobs is crossing a line. It's a subtle line so I understand why it might be hard to see the difference but in my mind there most definitely is a difference between "X has been playing really well lately but Y hasn't reached his potential in the last few games" and "Dos has got to be looking at getting rid of Z, he needs to go." Note that there are no rules about doing this. There are just a number of people here who think it's really disrespectful and unfair and also could undermine players' confidence which none of us wants. Let me reiterate, nobody is stopping anyone making those sorts of posts, there are just people who think we shouldn't. Andy K, for example, has the power to delete posts that break forum rules. Has he deleted these ones? No. As for the violent imagery, personally I don't like it as a rule. But for crying out loud, this was obvious satire. It was clearly a parody of the quote from 1984: "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." If you think that was meant literally then I suggest you read or re-read that book. I see what you did with your usage of "rhetorical device" there!!..........but whilst we may be on opposite sides of the argument I think we have closed the divide to an acceptable level
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Post by timbo on Dec 5, 2018 12:18:07 GMT
Let's just be very clear. Discussing players in such a way isn't "unauthorised" in any shape or form, and no posts were censored or deleted. That continues to be the case. I posted as an individual about whether saying such things in a public place, which can be read by other fans (both of our club and beyond), the management of the side, the wider general public and most importantly the people concerned is a good way to go about it. That's not a difficult concept to understand is it? To suggest that things are "authorised" or not is plainly ludicrous in this context. Just imagine for one moment that Dos came onto this forum and started naming fans individually questioning their support or commitment or having a go at them for "not singing enough". How would you react to that if it was about you? This will inevitably fall back to the "I'm allowed my opinion, free speech, you're not the thought police etc". Sure, but if you struggle to accept the fact that others disagree with your opinion (and when those lines are put out there, it's usually in that sort of situation) or you can't accept that your opinions sometimes have an effect elsewhere and you don't feel any responsibility, then maybe the issue isn't the other posters on the forum, or the forum itself. We've all got one thing in common. We support our club. Let's focus on that eh? In terms of my reference as to what subjects are "authorised", there was more than a hint of sarcasm in the enquiry , surely you realise that? More importantly, whilst I think your choice not to post negatively about players' performance is more of an opinion than a "concept", I think everyone is bright enough to grasp your thought process, which is completely valid. Finally, one might argue that there are many different methods of supporting a club, including blind allegiance, but separately, in terms of promoting the health of a discussion board, stifling debate by chastising those who wish to discuss the relative merits of the players, may have the wrong effect
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Post by brisfitboy on Dec 5, 2018 13:04:16 GMT
I thought that 1984 was about the suppression of the free will and acting in the interests of the State. Granted citizens disappeared if they did not live up to the expectations of “Big Brother “ and although Winston Smith was allowed to live, he was a broken man thereafter. It was the constant changing of ‘history’ that exemplified the Communist doctrine.
Thank God we live in a relatively ‘free’ society and long may our forum continue.
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
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Post by Andy K on Dec 5, 2018 13:20:08 GMT
Let's just be very clear. Discussing players in such a way isn't "unauthorised" in any shape or form, and no posts were censored or deleted. That continues to be the case. I posted as an individual about whether saying such things in a public place, which can be read by other fans (both of our club and beyond), the management of the side, the wider general public and most importantly the people concerned is a good way to go about it. That's not a difficult concept to understand is it? To suggest that things are "authorised" or not is plainly ludicrous in this context. Just imagine for one moment that Dos came onto this forum and started naming fans individually questioning their support or commitment or having a go at them for "not singing enough". How would you react to that if it was about you? This will inevitably fall back to the "I'm allowed my opinion, free speech, you're not the thought police etc". Sure, but if you struggle to accept the fact that others disagree with your opinion (and when those lines are put out there, it's usually in that sort of situation) or you can't accept that your opinions sometimes have an effect elsewhere and you don't feel any responsibility, then maybe the issue isn't the other posters on the forum, or the forum itself. We've all got one thing in common. We support our club. Let's focus on that eh? In terms of my reference as to what subjects are "authorised", there was more than a hint of sarcasm in the enquiry , surely you realise that? More importantly, whilst I think your choice not to post negatively about players' performance is more of an opinion than a "concept", I think everyone is bright enough to grasp your thought process, which is completely valid. Finally, one might argue that there are many different methods of supporting a club, including blind allegiance, but separately, in terms of promoting the health of a discussion board, stifling debate by chastising those who wish to discuss the relative merits of the players, may have the wrong effect Sarcasm or just facetious. Reading your posts then I'm inclined to think the latter. Especially as you chose to repeat the statement in the thread. That to me is in a similar vein to someone going "I'm allowed my opinion" which always gets rolled out when they have had someone disagree with them and just don't like the fact someone has. Your last paragraph is a clear contradiction. Stifling a debate is when threads get locked or deleted. A counter argument isn't that. If you think it's fine to slag off players in a public place without consideration of their reaction, justified or not then that's fine. But if you or others can't accept the fact that people won't agree then maybe a fans forum isn't the right place for you. The "health" of a discussion board isn't only about argument and counter argument. On here we have people sharing information about a variety of football topics related directly or indirectly to the club, a whole 100+ page thread on news of the ex-u's, updates on the supporters club and coaches and plenty of other things which actually don't need discussion. Like I previously said, nothing has been deleted or censored, and really all that is happening here is you're getting a little wound up by the fact people don't agree with you. To paraphrase someone who comes across as intelligent on here "Take off your jackboots"
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,173
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Post by kpinwp on Dec 5, 2018 13:44:17 GMT
Let's just be very clear. Discussing players in such a way isn't "unauthorised" in any shape or form, and no posts were censored or deleted. That continues to be the case. I posted as an individual about whether saying such things in a public place, which can be read by other fans (both of our club and beyond), the management of the side, the wider general public and most importantly the people concerned is a good way to go about it. That's not a difficult concept to understand is it? To suggest that things are "authorised" or not is plainly ludicrous in this context. Just imagine for one moment that Dos came onto this forum and started naming fans individually questioning their support or commitment or having a go at them for "not singing enough". How would you react to that if it was about you? This will inevitably fall back to the "I'm allowed my opinion, free speech, you're not the thought police etc". Sure, but if you struggle to accept the fact that others disagree with your opinion (and when those lines are put out there, it's usually in that sort of situation) or you can't accept that your opinions sometimes have an effect elsewhere and you don't feel any responsibility, then maybe the issue isn't the other posters on the forum, or the forum itself. We've all got one thing in common. We support our club. Let's focus on that eh? In terms of my reference as to what subjects are "authorised", there was more than a hint of sarcasm in the enquiry , surely you realise that? More importantly, whilst I think your choice not to post negatively about players' performance is more of an opinion than a "concept", I think everyone is bright enough to grasp your thought process, which is completely valid. Finally, one might argue that there are many different methods of supporting a club, including blind allegiance, but separately, in terms of promoting the health of a discussion board, stifling debate by chastising those who wish to discuss the relative merits of the players, may have the wrong effect To reply to your last paragraph. To the best of my knowledge no one on this tread has stated, in general terms, that we should not discuss the relative merits of the players. To discuss the players' perfomances in a given match, or over a period of time, or who is or isn't in form, who combines well with who or what a player's best position is, is a given. But this was a particular circumstance. The matter was, 'we need a new forward, we're midfield heavy, one of the midfielders will have to go, so who should it be?' Say, for example, a number of people had said 'Harry ought to go' for reasons x,y and z. Turns out that Dan is the one who goes. In the meantime Harry has read a bunch of negative stuff about him. Is that likely to make him a better player for us. Or is it more likely to be deteremental to his morale and performances? And all for no reason. I certainly can't see any upside. The fact that this discussion was a question of specific circumstance and not a stifling censorship has been repeatedly flagged up by a number of posters and yet still doesn't seem to have been comprehended.
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Post by timbo on Dec 5, 2018 13:49:18 GMT
In terms of my reference as to what subjects are "authorised", there was more than a hint of sarcasm in the enquiry , surely you realise that? More importantly, whilst I think your choice not to post negatively about players' performance is more of an opinion than a "concept", I think everyone is bright enough to grasp your thought process, which is completely valid. Finally, one might argue that there are many different methods of supporting a club, including blind allegiance, but separately, in terms of promoting the health of a discussion board, stifling debate by chastising those who wish to discuss the relative merits of the players, may have the wrong effect Sarcasm or just facetious. Reading your posts then I'm inclined to think the latter. Especially as you chose to repeat the statement in the thread. That to me is in a similar vein to someone going "I'm allowed my opinion" which always gets rolled out when they have had someone disagree with them and just don't like the fact someone has. Your last paragraph is a clear contradiction. Stifling a debate is when threads get locked or deleted. A counter argument isn't that. If you think it's fine to slag off players in a public place without consideration of their reaction, justified or not then that's fine. But if you or others can't accept the fact that people won't agree then maybe a fans forum isn't the right place for you. The "health" of a discussion board isn't only about argument and counter argument. On here we have people sharing information about a variety of football topics related directly or indirectly to the club, a whole 100+ page thread on news of the ex-u's, updates on the supporters club and coaches and plenty of other things which actually don't need discussion. Like I previously said, nothing has been deleted or censored, and really all that is happening here is you're getting a little wound up by the fact people don't agree with you. To paraphrase someone who comes across as intelligent on here "Take off your jackboots" I didn't mean to upset you!
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billy
1st team skipper
Posts: 2,626
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Post by billy on Dec 5, 2018 14:01:14 GMT
Perhaps this forum would benefit from having it's two (or three) most prolific posters taking a month (or six) off.
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Post by Andy K on Dec 5, 2018 14:05:23 GMT
Sarcasm or just facetious. Reading your posts then I'm inclined to think the latter. Especially as you chose to repeat the statement in the thread. That to me is in a similar vein to someone going "I'm allowed my opinion" which always gets rolled out when they have had someone disagree with them and just don't like the fact someone has. Your last paragraph is a clear contradiction. Stifling a debate is when threads get locked or deleted. A counter argument isn't that. If you think it's fine to slag off players in a public place without consideration of their reaction, justified or not then that's fine. But if you or others can't accept the fact that people won't agree then maybe a fans forum isn't the right place for you. The "health" of a discussion board isn't only about argument and counter argument. On here we have people sharing information about a variety of football topics related directly or indirectly to the club, a whole 100+ page thread on news of the ex-u's, updates on the supporters club and coaches and plenty of other things which actually don't need discussion. Like I previously said, nothing has been deleted or censored, and really all that is happening here is you're getting a little wound up by the fact people don't agree with you. To paraphrase someone who comes across as intelligent on here "Take off your jackboots" I didn't mean to upset you! You didn't! I stick to my point, even in this specific circumstance. Personally I feel it's better that those discussions happen in less public circumstances. And certainly I wasn't the only voice saying that either. And there were voices carrying on with the conversation. But when at least two posters (namely Messrs Pinewalker and Davethegrave) see that response as infringing on their human rights, with stupid accusations of "thought police" and the like, plus your sarcastic comment about admins authorising topic matter, this grew out of hand. Yes, I'm an admin, and I only act in such a way when people are acting in a threatening way (and almost always to forum member requests by the way). Otherwise I'm just a regular forum member with as much weight in what I post as others. Just because I can do it in an articulate way doesn't give me any more gravitas than others. So in a nutshell I've made my thoughts known and happy to accept the responsibility that goes with it. If the management come out on record to say that a couple of the players have had their confidence knocked by what they've read on here and elsewhere about their performance (and I specifically remember a thread about Drinan earlier in the season started by an Ipswich fan and there wasn't a huge amount of compliments there), then I can sleep easy at night.
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Post by Jared on Dec 5, 2018 14:08:00 GMT
Perhaps this forum would benefit from having it's two (or three) most prolific posters taking a month (or six) off. Or more importantly and helpfully if people learnt what a discussion was, that people can hold different views and everyone can share them. Or not cry and resort to childish analogies every time someone disagreed with them. Or if some people just didn’t come to troll every couple of months
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,173
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Post by kpinwp on Dec 5, 2018 14:16:50 GMT
Perhaps this forum would benefit from having it's two (or three) most prolific posters taking a month (or six) off. Or more importantly and helpfully if people learnt what a discussion was, that people can hold different views and everyone can share them. Or not cry and resort to childish analogies every time someone disagreed with them. Or if some people just didn’t come to troll every couple of months What Jared said. Doubled.
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trev
1st team skipper
In Matt We Trust
Posts: 2,477
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Post by trev on Dec 5, 2018 14:34:41 GMT
Perhaps this forum would benefit from having it's two (or three) most prolific posters taking a month (or six) off. I sincerely hope you enjoy your break, Billy.
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Post by timbo on Dec 5, 2018 14:46:53 GMT
Perhaps this forum would benefit from having it's two (or three) most prolific posters taking a month (or six) off. Or more importantly and helpfully if people learnt what a discussion was, that people can hold different views and everyone can share them. Or not cry and resort to childish analogies every time someone disagreed with them. Or if some people just didn’t come to troll every couple of months Some might say you should take some of your own advice.
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