billy
1st team skipper
Posts: 2,626
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Post by billy on Nov 14, 2019 0:23:32 GMT
To be fair i think it was a lot easier to score goals in the sixties and seventies.You didn't have to get past ten defenders/two banks of four.Also you weren't expected to stray back too far into your own half !
Nowadays you often see a lone frontman toiling away.Not my idea of fun.
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Post by os on Nov 21, 2019 23:00:02 GMT
The thing is that argument doesn't really hold water when you look at match results. Women's games aren't ending up with rugby scores - in fact they don't tend to have significantly more goals than the equivalent men's games - which would suggest there's nothing wrong with the size of the goal. I'm all for adjustments where needed promote equality but there just isn't evidence that it's a problem that needs fixing. Just thought i would come back on this after seeing tonight's Womens results: FA Women's League Cup Group C FT Everton(0) 1 4 (1)Manchester City FA Women's League Cup Group 1 North FT Blackburn Rovers(0) 0 6 (4)Liverpool FT Durham(0) 0 4 (2)Sheffield United FA Women's League Cup Group 1 South FT Arsenal 7 0 Bristol City FA Women's League Cup Group 2 North FT Manchester United(5) 11 1 (0)Leicester City FA Women's League Cup Group 2 South FT Reading 6 0 Crystal Palace That is 40 goals in 6 matches an avg of of just under 7 goals per match.
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Post by VCLXI on Nov 22, 2019 0:31:37 GMT
Yes so a few goals were pinged in. Other than the one game hardly rugby scores though are they?
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Post by Del on Nov 22, 2019 8:53:02 GMT
Not that many years ago some Football league scores were like that with open attacking football. Then coaches decided to defend rather than all out attack.
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Post by sallycat on Nov 22, 2019 9:33:26 GMT
Wow, what a lot of goals! But hang on, let's examine this with a critical eye as you can prove anything you like if you cherry-pick. After all, you didn't have a set of results to prove your point last week when we were having this conversation!
Those are cup games. Cup games have always thrown up weird results. Many of those pairs of teams are from different divisions. What if it's the gulf between those divisions that's the real problem, not just the goals? After all, if it were JUST that the goals were too big, you would be getting scorelines like 6-5 and 11-7, not 6-0 and 11-1. In those results it's clear that in each case one side has absolutely steamrollered the other and - often unlike in the men's game, one might say - the scoreline is actually reflective of how the game went. Maybe that's actually fairer? Who knows. How many times have we absolutely flattened another side and ended up narrowly losing 2-1?
Let's look at a set of Super League results where everyone is actually in the same division.
SUNDAY 27TH OCTOBER Everton Women 2-0 Brighton Women
Man Utd Women 2-0 Reading Women
B'ham City Women 2-0 Liverpool Women
Arsenal Women 1-0 Man City Women
Bristol City Women 1-2 Tottenham Women
West Ham Women 1-3 Chelsea Women
A pretty unremarkable set of results, I'd say. Perhaps slightly higher scoring than the men's version and a notable absence of draws (looking over several weeks they appear fairly rarely) but not significantly higher. Look at the September results, for instance, and they're full of 1-0s and even one 0-0.
And I may be alone in saying this, but having slightly higher scoring matches with fewer draws actually sounds very appealing to me and I wouldn't mind the men's game going in that direction. Just because it's different does not mean it's bad.
Having said all of that, for me the key thing is that the players - including goalkeepers such as Karen Bardsley - are overwhelmingly against changing the size of the goals, despite what Emma Hayes might say. Equality in football isn't deciding for them what women players need and should have. Equality is listening to what they say and making changes they tell you, based on their own experience, they need to be able to have equal access to the sport.
If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
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Post by Andy K on Nov 22, 2019 9:37:01 GMT
The thing is that argument doesn't really hold water when you look at match results. Women's games aren't ending up with rugby scores - in fact they don't tend to have significantly more goals than the equivalent men's games - which would suggest there's nothing wrong with the size of the goal. I'm all for adjustments where needed promote equality but there just isn't evidence that it's a problem that needs fixing. Just thought i would come back on this after seeing tonight's Womens results: FA Women's League Cup Group C FT Everton(0) 1 4 (1)Manchester City FA Women's League Cup Group 1 North FT Blackburn Rovers(0) 0 6 (4)Liverpool FT Durham(0) 0 4 (2)Sheffield United FA Women's League Cup Group 1 South FT Arsenal 7 0 Bristol City FA Women's League Cup Group 2 North FT Manchester United(5) 11 1 (0)Leicester City FA Women's League Cup Group 2 South FT Reading 6 0 Crystal Palace That is 40 goals in 6 matches an avg of of just under 7 goals per match. I recall a cup game recently that had 7 goals in a match.
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Post by timall on Nov 22, 2019 11:14:15 GMT
I recall a cup game recently that had 7 goals in a match. Don't ruin my day, please. Can't we refer to a 9 goal thriller in Nov 16 as a better counter argument?
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jr
1st team skipper
Posts: 2,166
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Post by jr on Nov 22, 2019 11:34:18 GMT
Argentina u23's beat The Canary Islands 14-1 last week
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Post by Andy K on Nov 22, 2019 11:55:06 GMT
I recall a cup game recently that had 7 goals in a match. Don't ruin my day, please. Can't we refer to a 9 goal thriller in Nov 16 as a better counter argument? Now that's a game worth remembering for all the right reasons!
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Post by davef on Nov 22, 2019 12:20:29 GMT
Argentina u23's beat The Canary Islands 14-1 last week
That's because they played a team made up only of wingers.
I'll get my coat..............
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Post by cheshire on Nov 22, 2019 14:45:00 GMT
That was a cheep pun Dave! (IGMC too!)
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Post by os on Nov 22, 2019 22:50:49 GMT
Having said all of that, for me the key thing is that the players - including goalkeepers such as Karen Bardsley - are overwhelmingly against changing the size of the goals, despite what Emma Hayes might say. Equality in football isn't deciding for them what women players need and should have. Equality is listening to what they say and making changes they tell you, based on their own experience, they need to be able to have equal access to the sport. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. You are making the women's game elitist, Karen Bardsley is 6ft tall, I am sure that most 6ft tall people will say the goals are fine, but a much smaller proportion of women are anywhere near that height. Equality means inclusive, and think of all those 5ft 8in potential female goal keepers who have no chance from the start. Equality is ensuring individuals or groups of individuals are not treated differently or less favourably , on the basis of their specific protected characteristic.
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Post by VCLXI on Nov 22, 2019 23:07:57 GMT
But didn't Sutton have a short goalkeeper? Who even has his own Facebook Fanclub.
You are as only as good as how far you can jump/dive it seems.
As for goals to be made smaller for the Women's game, it makes me chuckle to be honest. But not as much when the Americans wanted to make the damn things bigger for the 1994 World Cup.
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Post by sallycat on Nov 23, 2019 8:41:11 GMT
Having said all of that, for me the key thing is that the players - including goalkeepers such as Karen Bardsley - are overwhelmingly against changing the size of the goals, despite what Emma Hayes might say. Equality in football isn't deciding for them what women players need and should have. Equality is listening to what they say and making changes they tell you, based on their own experience, they need to be able to have equal access to the sport. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. You are making the women's game elitist, Karen Bardsley is 6ft tall, I am sure that most 6ft tall people will say the goals are fine, but a much smaller proportion of women are anywhere near that height. Equality means inclusive, and think of all those 5ft 8in potential female goal keepers who have no chance from the start. Equality is ensuring individuals or groups of individuals are not treated differently or less favourably , on the basis of their specific protected characteristic. Listening to what the players (and not just Karen Bardsley) say is elitist? Why is your opinion worth more than theirs? You're right that the sport is unfairly set up for men, but that's more to do with how it was set up in the very beginning, completely ignoring the fact that women might want to play it. Now they've had a chance to express an opinion on it, and you're completely ignoring it! How can you preach equality while doing that? (Not for the first time, I might add. I remember a conversation years ago about how to make SUFC more appealing to female fans, where my opinion was completely shot down by you and other male fans.) I do see where you are coming from in that the current setup does potentially exclude a larger number of women than men from playing one specific position in a team. That's not ideal, but what if actually it's ok to have smaller goalkeepers and more goals scored? What if - hear me out here - equality is more about accepting that it's OK for 4-2 to be a normal scoreline and it doesn't actually lower the quality of the match? What if the adjustment needed is to our attitudes rather than the goalposts? Yes, the average woman is much shorter than Karen Bardsley. But people of average height don't generally become goalkeepers in the first place. Again that's not the point. Height is not a protected characteristic. Gender is, but we've already gone over what women have been saying. Men shouldn't be deciding for women what they want and need. I'm repeating the view of the majority of female footballers who have publicly stated an opinion about this. Why aren't you?
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Post by sallycat on Nov 23, 2019 9:32:03 GMT
I should probably add to this that in the absence of any other information I would completely agree with you, OS. But if you want equality for a group of people then the first thing you need to do is ask those people what they want and listen to them.
I'm 5' tall and I was my school's first choice goalkeeper but always knew I wouldnt be able to take it further (we used hockey goals). I was OK with that, because it meant women's football would be more widespread. If we demanded special equipment then the spread of the game would be suppressed as clubs said "sorry you can't play here, we don't have women's goals."
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