kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,173
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Post by kpinwp on Apr 1, 2020 22:43:36 GMT
It's the very fact that there IS nothing in the rules that cover this situation that makes me feel that voiding the season (assuming we cannot complete it, fully, including promotion play-offs) is the most logical and fairest (sic) thing to do. I don't think it would even be an argument if the season was like 60% complete or something. But being that it's so close to the end, the null and void option is just so grossly unfair, whereas scrapping play off promotion places and working the rest out with some modeling and maths with a weighted play off is likely to result in far fewer potential law suits and generally a fairer outcome for all sides involved at the top or bottom of their leagues. At the very least sides who have a certain or near certain probability of coming top/bottom should be promoted/relegated. And I don't see why a side like Chorley or Norwich should get to stay in a division they're clearly I'll equipped to compete in because of this, it's beyond unfair imo and just plain stupid. Not saying there any easy answer but just that surely it can be worked out in a way that's acceptable and fair to the vast majority. Our division is in an unusual position whereby one team surely has to go up due to the bury scenario, so in that situation is it fair to simply allow barrow to go up? And how do you fairly decide which one side replace them when two leagues feed in? If that happens you'd have to relegate Chorley anyway to allow one team from each north and south to come up unless North South average points 'winners' play off, in which case why not have more extensive playoffs as per my suggestion? Likewise league 2 needs to promote a team unless one of the leagues operates with 23 teams again. there's barely a hair between the top 3 sides in league 2 so good luck making that decision without a play off. I certainly see how the 'void' option can feel (operative word) unfair. And it certainly would be harsh on some clubs. But if you look at the complications that start to develop once 'probability' finishing places are considered, as you yourself point out in your second two paragraphs, then voiding the season is actually the only even handed approach. Otherwise you end up with a whole series of highly debatable, ad hoc, decisions. At least with a voided season everyone is in the same boat, even if the implications are different. One can at least present a simple and consistent position, which is to say; the season couldn't be finished, therefore it's void.
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Post by Andy K on Apr 3, 2020 11:05:34 GMT
Just for info, if the season for example would be concluded on a points per game basis this is how it would end up www.footballwebpages.co.uk/national-league/league-table/ppmWe'd finish 15th. Barrow go up as champions. Maidenhead, Ebbsfleet, Fylde and Chorley go down. Harrogate, Yeovil, BW, Notts C, Halifax and Barnet finish in a play off position. Wealdstone and Kings lynn win the South and North respectively. South play offs - Havant, Weymouth, Bath, Slough, Dartford, Dorking. North play off - York, Boston, Brackley, Altrincham, Chester, Gateshead. If a play off gets a chance to occur, then any of those teams could make it. If this drags on long enough for a play off not to be feasible then 2nd place could end up going up by default - that means York and Havant. Harrogate of course will go into the league in that scenario. Stevenage relegated from the EFL (only 1 down due to Bury)
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Post by pinewalker on Apr 3, 2020 14:08:00 GMT
For what it is worth, and in my opinion only option 1 is viable, this is the FA advice to grass roots football.
"It gives us the option to (1) declare the season null and void and thus not award trophies for the Leagues, or (2) to allocate the League standing on a PPG basis and award trophies, or (3) award every outstanding game as a 0-0 draw and 1 point each and award the trophies." Andy K - since you have done the option 2 study, you might be willing to analyse the 3rd option if applied to VNL.
To be fair leagues with 80% completion might opt for options 2 or 3. However in SE England the amount of postponements due to waterlogging (and cup ties take preference over league matches, so the latter get postponed to accomodate unplayed cup ties) meant several leagues were around 60% complete only. Voiding the season was the only realistic choice.
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Post by Andy K on Apr 3, 2020 16:57:55 GMT
For what it is worth, and in my opinion only option 1 is viable, this is the FA advice to grass roots football. "It gives us the option to (1) declare the season null and void and thus not award trophies for the Leagues, or (2) to allocate the League standing on a PPG basis and award trophies, or (3) award every outstanding game as a 0-0 draw and 1 point each and award the trophies." Andy K - since you have done the option 2 study, you might be willing to analyse the 3rd option if applied to VNL. To be fair leagues with 80% completion might opt for options 2 or 3. However in SE England the amount of postponements due to waterlogging (and cup ties take preference over league matches, so the latter get postponed to accomodate unplayed cup ties) meant several leagues were around 60% complete only. Voiding the season was the only realistic choice. Mathematically it won't make a huge difference to where we are now (in terms of who ends up with PPG) - the bottom 4 stay the same, as do the sides at the top. Just a couple of movements around the middle, with us ending 14th instead of 15th. Interestingly even after the the announcements from the PL and EFL about not knowing when to restart, seems like most of the clubs want to play out the season, and UEFA are also currently taking the position of restarting and finishing the major domestic leagues under their umbrella.
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Post by os on Apr 3, 2020 18:35:55 GMT
For what it is worth, and in my opinion only option 1 is viable, this is the FA advice to grass roots football. "It gives us the option to (1) declare the season null and void and thus not award trophies for the Leagues, or (2) to allocate the League standing on a PPG basis and award trophies, or (3) award every outstanding game as a 0-0 draw and 1 point each and award the trophies." Andy K - since you have done the option 2 study, you might be willing to analyse the 3rd option if applied to VNL. To be fair leagues with 80% completion might opt for options 2 or 3. However in SE England the amount of postponements due to waterlogging (and cup ties take preference over league matches, so the latter get postponed to accomodate unplayed cup ties) meant several leagues were around 60% complete only. Voiding the season was the only realistic choice. Mathematically it won't make a huge difference to where we are now (in terms of who ends up with PPG) - the bottom 4 stay the same, as do the sides at the top. Just a couple of movements around the middle, with us ending 14th instead of 15th. Interestingly even after the the announcements from the PL and EFL about not knowing when to restart, seems like most of the clubs want to play out the season, and UEFA are also currently taking the position of restarting and finishing the major domestic leagues under their umbrella. I think if you don't void the season, the realistic choices are : 1 - Calculate final standings using an independent formula similar to the Duckworth-Lewis system in cricket. It has to take recent form into the calculation, to my mind Notts County would be very close to Barrow if you continued the form line. Likewise Ebbsfleet would avoid relegation by some distance, 2 - We could play matches behind closed doors (my preferred option) from Premiership to the regional National leagues we all have the technology to do that fairly easily and it could be pay per view as well.
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Post by medwaysider on Apr 3, 2020 19:21:17 GMT
Who knows whether it will set a precedent but I read the other day that the Belgians are the first league in Europe to call an official halt to their season, and Club Brugge, who were 15 points clear at the top, have been crowned champions.
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Post by Andy K on Apr 3, 2020 20:37:23 GMT
Who knows whether it will set a precedent but I read the other day that the Belgians are the first league in Europe to call an official halt to their season, and Club Brugge, who were 15 points clear at the top, have been crowned champions. To which UEFA are saying the season isn't complete and they may not allow them in the champions league next season!
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Rambo
1st team Player
Posts: 1,658
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Post by Rambo on Apr 3, 2020 20:58:50 GMT
Who knows whether it will set a precedent but I read the other day that the Belgians are the first league in Europe to call an official halt to their season, and Club Brugge, who were 15 points clear at the top, have been crowned champions. This is probably the only League who could get away with this as all clubs in the Division only had one more game to play, with Bruges, as you point out 15 points clear were "uncatchable"....the clubs in 2nd, 3rd & 4th were separated by 2 points ( on 55, 54 & 53 respectively ) and the one in 6th on 49, so they couldn't progress any further........The Club in 16th are on 20 points, and the one immediately above them on 22, so they're possible the only one who could claim "foul"
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Post by medwaysider on Apr 3, 2020 22:12:52 GMT
Who knows whether it will set a precedent but I read the other day that the Belgians are the first league in Europe to call an official halt to their season, and Club Brugge, who were 15 points clear at the top, have been crowned champions. This is probably the only League who could get away with this as all clubs in the Division only had one more game to play, with Bruges, as you point out 15 points clear were "uncatchable"....the clubs in 2nd, 3rd & 4th were separated by 2 points ( on 55, 54 & 53 respectively ) and the one in 6th on 49, so they couldn't progress any further........The Club in 16th are on 20 points, and the one immediately above them on 22, so they're possible the only one who could claim "foul" Rambo, as far as I understand it, not one more game to play in total but one more game until the split, when the top half sides play each other, likewise the bottom half. But yes, in the case of Club Brugge, pretty much done and dusted.
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Post by medwaysider on Apr 3, 2020 22:16:52 GMT
Who knows whether it will set a precedent but I read the other day that the Belgians are the first league in Europe to call an official halt to their season, and Club Brugge, who were 15 points clear at the top, have been crowned champions. To which UEFA are saying the season isn't complete and they may not allow them in the champions league next season! Hadn't noticed UEFAs response, Andy. I can understand them emphasising that the league isn't complete but to threaten exclusion from next season's CL seems a little provocative at this stage. I'm guessing they're keen to nip any more premature announcements in the bud, in that case. Given the points gap and the not dissimilar nature of the two leagues, it will be very interesting to see if the SFA react. That really would open up a can of worms given Celtic's claim to 9 in a row this season!
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Post by davethegrave on Apr 5, 2020 15:06:16 GMT
I don't know what will happen but after all (and I know this will rile a lot of people) it is only a game. A highly lucrative one at certain levels though I realise.
I think though at our level Barrow should go up if the season is cancelled although I don't know who would replace them.
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Post by Andy K on Apr 5, 2020 16:50:43 GMT
I don't know what will happen but after all (and I know this will rile a lot of people) it is only a game. A highly lucrative one at certain levels though I realise. I think though at our level Barrow should go up if the season is cancelled although I don't know who would replace them. It's not only a game. For many it's a career or a lifestyle.
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tonyd
1st team Player
Posts: 1,494
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Post by tonyd on Apr 6, 2020 9:56:09 GMT
Who knows whether it will set a precedent but I read the other day that the Belgians are the first league in Europe to call an official halt to their season, and Club Brugge, who were 15 points clear at the top, have been crowned champions. This is probably the only League who could get away with this as all clubs in the Division only had one more game to play, with Bruges, as you point out 15 points clear were "uncatchable"....the clubs in 2nd, 3rd & 4th were separated by 2 points ( on 55, 54 & 53 respectively ) and the one in 6th on 49, so they couldn't progress any further........The Club in 16th are on 20 points, and the one immediately above them on 22, so they're possible the only one who could claim "foul" Hey Rambo, if they make the season null and void, does this mean I won’t have to pay you for goal sponsorship?! 😊
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Rambo
1st team Player
Posts: 1,658
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Post by Rambo on Apr 6, 2020 10:12:57 GMT
Ha Ha Tony, that brought a wry chuckle this morning, but, sadly no it doesn't mean that, as you're probably aware EVERY penny goes into the Club's coffers, and as the cupboard is very bare at the moment, they need every penny they can get !!
As it stands at the moment, providing I can collect what's owing for the 56 goals scored so far, should the season finish now, then there will be just over £515 raised.
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tonyd
1st team Player
Posts: 1,494
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Post by tonyd on Apr 6, 2020 10:45:27 GMT
Sadly it doesn’t look as though there will be any more games this season, so you better let me (and any others in the same situation) know how much we owe and how we can pay!
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