trev
1st team skipper
In Matt We Trust
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Post by trev on Jul 26, 2022 12:54:54 GMT
As you say their rights are protected by law and the verbal or written opinions of one or two prominent, if Rowling can be described as such, individuals isn't going to change that law. Or tear down the protections that law gives. I respect the laws of the land no convictions, yet, but also the right of an individual to be allowed to express their opinions as long as that opinion doesn't, in itself, break the law eg, racism. Of course, if that opinion should lead directly to the breach of any law and can be proved to be that is a different matter. And that freedom of speech either verbal or written is the whole crux of my argument. And has f all to do with what paper I read. And yet again, this is where your argument is in direct conflict with the laws of the United Kingdom, for the simple reason that freedom of speech is not, and indeed never has been, an absolute right, as you clearly seem to think it is. Freedom of expression, in accordance with Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, is a qualified right. This is made explicit by the wording of Article 10(2): "The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary." So because freedom of speech is expressly circumscribed by "formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society...", this clearly means that you most certainly cannot say whatever you like about the transgender community. A case in point was when Graham Linehan posted on social media, information about the pre-gender reassignment identity of a transgender woman, notwithstanding that her gender had been legally changed in accordance with the Gender Recognition Act 2004. He received a criminal record for that, for the simple reason that what he did was unlawful. And UK law applies just as much to this forum as any other, regardless of what you or anyone else might "think" or "believe".
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Post by toothman on Jul 26, 2022 14:25:59 GMT
Am i alone in being made to feel very uncomfortable as “ forum friends” tear themselves apart over this issue. This FOOTBALL forum is not the right place for such a debate and like e mails this that are written down in the heat of the moment, are often miss their intended point or are misinterpreted ( often because that suits the recipients agenda).
All I would like to add is that however extreme views are on any subject and how much you object/ disagree with them , provided they are legal , NOBODY should be cancelled. Cancellation is cruel, it’s a type of bullying and in many cases has affected the livelihoods of individuals and their families. Cancellation is in itself discriminatory and is like all isms and phobias, irrational and causes schisms in society.
This thread should be closed down- its has gone way way away from its original moan about plagerised articles and forgetting that Sutton exist!
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trev
1st team skipper
In Matt We Trust
Posts: 2,477
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Post by trev on Jul 26, 2022 15:22:37 GMT
Am i alone in being made to feel very uncomfortable as “ forum friends” tear themselves apart over this issue. This FOOTBALL forum is not the right place for such a debate and like e mails this that are written down in the heat of the moment, are often miss their intended point or are misinterpreted ( often because that suits the recipients agenda). All I would like to add is that however extreme views are on any subject and how much you object/ disagree with them , provided they are legal , NOBODY should be cancelled. Cancellation is cruel, it’s a type of bullying and in many cases has affected the livelihoods of individuals and their families. Cancellation is in itself discriminatory and is like all isms and phobias, irrational and causes schisms in society. This thread should be closed down- its has gone way way away from its original moan about plagerised articles and forgetting that Sutton exist! That's the crux of it, toothman. Extreme views should be tolerated provided they are legal.This is precisely the issue here - an extreme view was expressed earlier today by a forum member i.e. "I don't have any problem with how they wish to identify but that doesn't give them the right to be in certain areas defined as for women only."Plainly and obviously, that is not a legal view because it is not in accordance with the law. There is no room for debate here. No-one should have to tolerate a view which is directly counter to the laws of this country on this forum or any other for that matter. End of.
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Post by toothman on Jul 26, 2022 16:17:08 GMT
Am i alone in being made to feel very uncomfortable as “ forum friends” tear themselves apart over this issue. This FOOTBALL forum is not the right place for such a debate and like e mails this that are written down in the heat of the moment, are often miss their intended point or are misinterpreted ( often because that suits the recipients agenda). All I would like to add is that however extreme views are on any subject and how much you object/ disagree with them , provided they are legal , NOBODY should be cancelled. Cancellation is cruel, it’s a type of bullying and in many cases has affected the livelihoods of individuals and their families. Cancellation is in itself discriminatory and is like all isms and phobias, irrational and causes schisms in society. This thread should be closed down- its has gone way way away from its original moan about plagerised articles and forgetting that Sutton exist! That's the crux of it, toothman. Extreme views should be tolerated provided they are legal.This is precisely the issue here - an extreme view was expressed earlier today by a forum member i.e. "I don't have any problem with how they wish to identify but that doesn't give them the right to be in certain areas defined as for women only."Plainly and obviously, that is not a legal view because it is not in accordance with the law. There is no room for debate here. No-one should have to tolerate a view which is directly counter to the laws of this country on this forum or any other for that matter. End of. Having an view against a law which you disagree with is not unlawful- slander liable or incitement to commit an illegal act is. Are people who say cannibis use should be legalised breaking the law - no they are expressing an opinion which anyone can agree or disagree with. That is free speech.
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tonyd
1st team Player
Posts: 1,496
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Post by tonyd on Jul 26, 2022 16:28:15 GMT
Anyone else bored or is it just me?
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trev
1st team skipper
In Matt We Trust
Posts: 2,477
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Post by trev on Jul 26, 2022 16:31:23 GMT
That's the crux of it, toothman. Extreme views should be tolerated provided they are legal.This is precisely the issue here - an extreme view was expressed earlier today by a forum member i.e. "I don't have any problem with how they wish to identify but that doesn't give them the right to be in certain areas defined as for women only."Plainly and obviously, that is not a legal view because it is not in accordance with the law. There is no room for debate here. No-one should have to tolerate a view which is directly counter to the laws of this country on this forum or any other for that matter. End of. Having an view against a law which you disagree with is not unlawful- slander liable or incitement to commit an illegal act is. Are people who say cannibis use should be legalised breaking the law - no they are expressing an opinion which anyone can agree or disagree with. That is free speech. If someone continues to spread false information about any minority group e.g. by claiming that they don't have rights that as a matter of law they do have, then they can expect to be picked up on that toothman, and face the legal consequences of doing so, whether you like it or not. That is the rule of law.
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trev
1st team skipper
In Matt We Trust
Posts: 2,477
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Post by trev on Jul 26, 2022 17:05:42 GMT
Anyone else bored or is it just me? The luxury of being "bored" by the wilful and systemic marginalisation and oppression of the transgender community is a privilege that not everyone is accorded, Tony.
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Post by Andy K on Jul 26, 2022 18:10:39 GMT
Whilst not denying some very valid points within this thread, it provides a timely reminder at the audience this forum has. The common thread and the thing that unites us is our love of Sutton United football club.
Whilst some people will have very strong views about all sorts of topics, to many readers those views won't resonate as much if at all.
I do feel that we all on here have a responsibility to talk about what we are all passionate about, not just a few. That's what makes Amber Planet such a vibrant platform. As I say, you go into a butchers to buy meat, or a bakers to buy baked goods. You don't go to either of those expecting to sort out a mortgage.
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Post by Del on Jul 26, 2022 21:33:58 GMT
I'm surprised anyone even buys a newspaper nowadays ! They all try to assert their owners' views. Sadly a lot of people are gullible to believe them.
Incidentally referring back to what Trev mentioned i had a conversation with Oswald Mosley once.
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Post by brisfitboy2 on Jul 26, 2022 23:23:40 GMT
I'm surprised anyone even buys a newspaper nowadays ! They all try to assert their owners' views. Sadly a lot of people are gullible to believe them. Incidentally referring back to what Trev mentioned i had a conversation with Oswald Mosley once. What! Were you in prison as well?
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Post by Del on Jul 27, 2022 6:01:03 GMT
I'm surprised anyone even buys a newspaper nowadays ! They all try to assert their owners' views. Sadly a lot of people are gullible to believe them. Incidentally referring back to what Trev mentioned i had a conversation with Oswald Mosley once. What! Were you in prison as well? I'm not that old !!!
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Post by Andy K on Jul 27, 2022 11:45:40 GMT
Whilst not denying some very valid points within this thread, it provides a timely reminder at the audience this forum has. The common thread and the thing that unites us is our love of Sutton United football club. Whilst some people will have very strong views about all sorts of topics, to many readers those views won't resonate as much if at all. I do feel that we all on here have a responsibility to talk about what we are all passionate about, not just a few. That's what makes Amber Planet such a vibrant platform. As I say, you go into a butchers to buy meat, or a bakers to buy baked goods. You don't go to either of those expecting to sort out a mortgage. Compare and contrast the above view with the scenes that unfolded during the epic England Women v Sweden Women Euro semi-final match which took place last night. Immediately prior to kick-off, both teams took the knee in a united display of solidarity for LGBTQ rights. Both teams’ captains sported rainbow-coloured armbands. Lesbian icon Beth Mead scored an absolute belter of a goal that kickstarted what was arguably the greatest performance from an England football team in my lifetime. This is one area in which the women’s game is streets ahead of the men’s game, in which pockets of cisgender males remain perplexingly resistant to the concept of LGBTQ rights being part and parcel of the modern game. With prescient timeliness, yesterday morning, Sutton United’s official #HerGameToo Ambassador voiced her concerns on this forum (for the first time, note) about some of the anti-LGBTQ views expressed in this thread. On the same day, just a few hours later, Sutton United’s Press Officer Tony Dolbear came onto the thread to publicly proclaim: “Anyone else bored or is it just me?” Bear in mind, this is not a discussion which had been going on for months, weeks or even days. It had only been in existence for a few hours. I think that supporters and shareholders alike have every right to be concerned when the Club’s own Press Officer makes a public announcement about his indifference regarding the rights and welfare of the LGBTQ community. By all means exercise your right not to be interested in LGBTQ rights, but if you are an official representative of Sutton United, then going public about your being “bored” by matters which affect the day to day lives of thousands of people in this country is a very negative message to be sending out. Compare and contrast that with the fantastic positivity and inclusivity exhibited by the England Women’s team last night. Now there is a shining example for all of us to learn from. Tonyd and Tony Dolbear are two different people. The latter posts on here as presssec.
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trev
1st team skipper
In Matt We Trust
Posts: 2,477
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Post by trev on Jul 27, 2022 12:01:10 GMT
I have deleted my original post because it is clear from what you say that I have fallen into error and wrongly attributed a quote to Tony Dolbear. I offer my public apologies to Tony Dolbear for misquoting him.
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Post by sallycat on Jul 27, 2022 12:04:20 GMT
I agree the depth of this conversation has gone a little beyond what would normally be discussed on a football forum but let's remember we have transgender fans (and those from other minority groups) and I think it's important to show we are inclusive and won't e.g. try to force them to use the wrong toilet.
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trev
1st team skipper
In Matt We Trust
Posts: 2,477
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Post by trev on Jul 27, 2022 12:07:47 GMT
Whilst not denying some very valid points within this thread, it provides a timely reminder at the audience this forum has. The common thread and the thing that unites us is our love of Sutton United football club. Whilst some people will have very strong views about all sorts of topics, to many readers those views won't resonate as much if at all. I do feel that we all on here have a responsibility to talk about what we are all passionate about, not just a few. That's what makes Amber Planet such a vibrant platform. As I say, you go into a butchers to buy meat, or a bakers to buy baked goods. You don't go to either of those expecting to sort out a mortgage. The following is an edited version of what I wrote earlier today, to remove what others have quite rightly pointed out was a factual error on my part, for which I apologise: Compare and contrast the above view with the scenes that unfolded during the epic England Women v Sweden Women Euro semi-final match which took place last night. Immediately prior to kickoff, both teams took the knee in a united display of solidarity for LGBTQ rights. Both teams’ captains sported rainbow-coloured armbands. Lesbian icon Beth Mead scored an absolute belter of a goal that kickstarted what was arguably the greatest semi-final performance from an England football team in my lifetime. This is one area in which the women’s game is streets ahead of the men’s game, in which pockets of cisgender males remain perplexingly resistant to the concept of LGBTQ rights being part and parcel of the modern game. With prescient timeliness, yesterday morning, Sutton United’s official #HerGameToo Ambassador voiced her concerns on this forum (for the first time, note) about some of the anti-LGBTQ views expressed in this thread. It is therefore worrying that just a few hours later, someone came onto the thread to publicly proclaim: “Anyone else bored or is it just me?” Bear in mind, this is not a discussion which had been going on for months, weeks or even days. It had only been in existence for a few hours. By all means exercise your right not to be interested in LGBTQ rights, but it is far from constructive to go public about your being “bored” by matters which affect the day to day lives of thousands of people in this country. This is a very negative message to be sending out. Compare and contrast that with the fantastic positivity and inclusivity exhibited by the England Women’s team last night. Now there is a shining example for all of us to learn from.
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