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Post by Andy K on Jan 8, 2023 11:10:21 GMT
That was a great away point in yet another entertaining game at Prenton Park (as is always the case). The team went up there to get all 3, and there was at no time we sat back and played for the draw. I thought across the team our close control was a bit lacking overall (not just one or two of the players, but 6 or 7 of them) at times, but that's hardly a hill I'm willing to die on. Obviously the MoM was Ali, but in reality even if he hadn't scored, his workrate throughout the game was top draw and he's had his best game since coming back from injury, and I'd stretch that to say of the season.
Now onto other matters. I was fuming on the way home last night and I thought I'd sleep on it so I wasn't going to write "in the heat of the moment" last night. I've woken up today still very angry about the treatment of one of our supporters at yesterdays match, both by one of the stewards and by the police.
I won't go into every detail, but in essence this was the chain of events. One of our most dedicated supporters (who was sitting 1 person away from me) was identified by one of their stewards (who was stewarding at the bottom of the stairwell furthest away from us and a good 10/12 rows down) as vaping in the ground. The said steward then came up to the individual (which took some time as he was a distance away) on his own to come up to him and say "stop vaping". Now, knowing the individual involved, we know he has never smoked or vaped in his life and there was no evidence of vaping anywhere near us. No puff of smoke, no smell. Nothing. Myself and a couple of other supporters attempted to explain this to the steward who didn't want to know, and it was even suggested that the steward search the supporter for the "vape device". He point blankly refused saying "he saw him vape".
The steward then went away and for the next 10 minutes or so I glanced over and this steward kept their gaze fixed on our supporter. I also noticed that none of the other stewards, who were closer and in a better position to view had approached the supporter. Then soon after a policewoman came up to where we were and asked our supporter to accompany them, where he was escorted under the stand and said to him that a complaint had been made of "homophobic abuse". After a lengthy discussion, where at no point in the conversation was the supporter told what he had said to cause the complaint, another officer came up and attempted to take his bag which was left behind in the stand. Another supporter insisted (thank god) that he take the bag down. The accused was then ejected from the ground before half time.
That's the basic facts of the incident. I'm very happy to put on record (and in any statements required if this goes further) as someone who was within a metre of the individual when both alledged offences were supposed to have taken place that neither offence happened. I was also told by another, honest and loyal supporter, that the ejection took place because the alledged "committed a crime" according to the Met Police officer that was on duty. It's important to state at this point that Donna, our usual Met officer wasn't on duty yesterday, and I'm of the strong belief that if she was, this wouldn't have happened the way it did.
I have no issue whatsoever when an individual who does shout homophobic abuse, regardless of if they are a Sutton supporter or not, is ejected from the ground. But when they didn't (infact said supporter a few weeks back actually had a go at another supporter for doing the things he got accused of) do such a thing, the police refused to tell the accused what they actually said, I feel this is a precedent that no clue would wish to follow. We have veered into territory of where any supporter now could be ejected from the ground, and potentially get a footballing ban on the basis of one steward taking a dislike to them for whatever reason. That's not what football is about, or supporting a team is about. I, and others, have already informed the club of the incident (with more details obviously) and I really hope the absolute minimum that happens is that our supporter gets a full apology from Tranmere for the behaviour of one of their stewards, and in all honesty a refund of his match ticket. Something he spent money on and was denied on the basis of what I saw was a grudge and nothing else.
It's such a shame because as I've said before I've always found Tranmere to be a friendly and classy club (their memorial before the game really had class throughout), and my view and I expect others have been tainted by the action of one individual who decided he didn't like someone and then got the police to do his bidding in that matter.
A really horrid spoiler to which was otherwise a decent day out and a great game of football. Although my spoiled day is nothing compared to the supporter who ended up doing a 500 mile round trip to get victimised by a match official, fully endorsed and supported by the police.
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jr
1st team skipper
Posts: 2,195
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Post by jr on Jan 8, 2023 17:42:57 GMT
That was a great away point in yet another entertaining game at Prenton Park (as is always the case). The team went up there to get all 3, and there was at no time we sat back and played for the draw. I thought across the team our close control was a bit lacking overall (not just one or two of the players, but 6 or 7 of them) at times, but that's hardly a hill I'm willing to die on. Obviously the MoM was Ali, but in reality even if he hadn't scored, his workrate throughout the game was top draw and he's had his best game since coming back from injury, and I'd stretch that to say of the season. Now onto other matters. I was fuming on the way home last night and I thought I'd sleep on it so I wasn't going to write "in the heat of the moment" last night. I've woken up today still very angry about the treatment of one of our supporters at yesterdays match, both by one of the stewards and by the police. I won't go into every detail, but in essence this was the chain of events. One of our most dedicated supporters (who was sitting 1 person away from me) was identified by one of their stewards (who was stewarding at the bottom of the stairwell furthest away from us and a good 10/12 rows down) as vaping in the ground. The said steward then came up to the individual (which took some time as he was a distance away) on his own to come up to him and say "stop vaping". Now, knowing the individual involved, we know he has never smoked or vaped in his life and there was no evidence of vaping anywhere near us. No puff of smoke, no smell. Nothing. Myself and a couple of other supporters attempted to explain this to the steward who didn't want to know, and it was even suggested that the steward search the supporter for the "vape device". He point blankly refused saying "he saw him vape". The steward then went away and for the next 10 minutes or so I glanced over and this steward kept their gaze fixed on our supporter. I also noticed that none of the other stewards, who were closer and in a better position to view had approached the supporter. Then soon after a policewoman came up to where we were and asked our supporter to accompany them, where he was escorted under the stand and said to him that a complaint had been made of "homophobic abuse". After a lengthy discussion, where at no point in the conversation was the supporter told what he had said to cause the complaint, another officer came up and attempted to take his bag which was left behind in the stand. Another supporter insisted (thank god) that he take the bag down. The accused was then ejected from the ground before half time. That's the basic facts of the incident. I'm very happy to put on record (and in any statements required if this goes further) as someone who was within a metre of the individual when both alledged offences were supposed to have taken place that neither offence happened. I was also told by another, honest and loyal supporter, that the ejection took place because the alledged "committed a crime" according to the Met Police officer that was on duty. It's important to state at this point that Donna, our usual Met officer wasn't on duty yesterday, and I'm of the strong belief that if she was, this wouldn't have happened the way it did. I have no issue whatsoever when an individual who does shout homophobic abuse, regardless of if they are a Sutton supporter or not, is ejected from the ground. But when they didn't (infact said supporter a few weeks back actually had a go at another supporter for doing the things he got accused of) do such a thing, the police refused to tell the accused what they actually said, I feel this is a precedent that no clue would wish to follow. We have veered into territory of where any supporter now could be ejected from the ground, and potentially get a footballing ban on the basis of one steward taking a dislike to them for whatever reason. That's not what football is about, or supporting a team is about. I, and others, have already informed the club of the incident (with more details obviously) and I really hope the absolute minimum that happens is that our supporter gets a full apology from Tranmere for the behaviour of one of their stewards, and in all honesty a refund of his match ticket. Something he spent money on and was denied on the basis of what I saw was a grudge and nothing else. It's such a shame because as I've said before I've always found Tranmere to be a friendly and classy club (their memorial before the game really had class throughout), and my view and I expect others have been tainted by the action of one individual who decided he didn't like someone and then got the police to do his bidding in that matter. A really horrid spoiler to which was otherwise a decent day out and a great game of football. Although my spoiled day is nothing compared to the supporter who ended up doing a 500 mile round trip to get victimised by a match official, fully endorsed and supported by the police. Very well said Andy. I sat a bit further down from you but can confirm that the steward and Police got it horribly wrong. I heard the alleged remark and in no way was it homophobic. Their explanations were unsatisfactory and I understand that there were a few other things that happened during this incident by the authorities that was wrong. It will be interesting to see if anyone puts in a Freedom of Information request to either/both Merseyside Police and Tranmere to see a full list of ejections/arrests from the away end over day the last 2 seasons. I suspect that this may happen a bit if that’s the way the treat away fans. It ruined the day for not only the supporter but those that know the person. The game consisted of very few chances. I think Tony summed it up perfectly in his interview with Matt. We were so close to a winner though with the ball being cleared off the line in injury time. Nevertheless an excellent point gained. 10 points off 3rd
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Post by pinewalker on Jan 8, 2023 21:00:45 GMT
An extraordinary and disturbing account. It sounds like the steward was an attention-seeking liar. If he had a numbered vest I hope you have a record of it. It illustrates the erosion of free speech when a person can be targeted for something he was not doing and then can be ejected for something he did not say: on the word of one steward without corroboration.
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Post by Andy K on Jan 8, 2023 21:56:22 GMT
An extraordinary and disturbing account. It sounds like the steward was an attention-seeking liar. If he had a numbered vest I hope you have a record of it. It illustrates the erosion of free speech when a person can be targeted for something he was not doing and then can be ejected for something he did not say: on the word of one steward without corroboration. Unfortunately I didn't notice one. This one steward however isn't one of the "just a job" stewards that we and other clubs have. It was a steward of a more advanced age and more akin to a volunteer rather than a professional steward, if you get my meaning.
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markf
Top Performer
Posts: 3,314
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Post by markf on Jan 9, 2023 6:51:45 GMT
He was identifiable by the white bobble hat he was wearing. It was rather telling that at half time he was removed from the away end to steward elsewhere.
I find it rather chilling that one human being can be removed from a location on the say so of another where there is no actual evidence of any of what he/she/etc has been accused of.
The police's 's attitude wasn't helpful either. A total unwillingness to communicate thus any of us could have suffered a similar fate as we had no idea what the alleged offence was.
From what I now gather it was the steward missed hearing what was said. I also used the same word during the game. Perhaps my pronunciation was clearer?
Perhaps this is just how it is for away fans at EFL grounds and just our first experience of it? I always believed in this country you was innocent until proven guilty. Obviously not if you're an away fan at Tranmere or at least because one steward doesn't like the look of you or so it would seem.
Took the gloss of a good point from a decent match almost ruined by a refereeing performance as inept as that of said steward.
Weather permitting on to Salford Their pitch looked awful on the itv highlights and from midweek heavy rain is forecast in the Manchester area.
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oohaah
Top Performer
Posts: 3,138
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Post by oohaah on Jan 9, 2023 8:12:53 GMT
I was going to post something about this if nobody else did. I'm glad I waited now as I certainly couldn't have written anything anywhere near as eloquently as AndyK. Well done sir. Tranmere is always a great place to go as an away supporter (it has certainly been my favourite) but as others have said, this incident ruined the afternoon for the individual and for all those around him who witnessed it.
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Post by sallycat on Jan 9, 2023 9:44:26 GMT
Andy's post is absolutely spot on and there's very little I want to say on the matter that he hasn't already said (and probably articulated better than I would). Where Andy says the ejected fan was 1 person away from him, I was that 1 person so I witnessed the exchange with the steward at very close quarters. I am still absolutely fuming about what happened. It was unfair, disproportionate and carried out in a way that showed total disregard for this individual's rights, including the right to answer an accusation before being judged. From what I now gather it was the steward missed hearing what was said. I also used the same word during the game. Perhaps my pronunciation was clearer? I would go a step further. Funny, wasn't it, that the person in question was (clearly wrongly) accused of vaping and then suddenly a few minutes later he's apparently done something entirely different? Yeah, I don't think that was accidentally misheard by the person who was at the time observing him VERY closely. I think someone took a dislike to one of our fans and decided to go on a little power trip. The "homophobic" shout that definitely wasn't but maybe could have been misheard as one, was seen as a chance that could be jumped on after trying to start an argument about "vaping" didn't succeed in provoking him into losing his temper enough to be chucked out. Totally agree with all your other comments too. Also wanted to wait until I wasn't angry any more before posting but that's not coming any time soon.
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jr
1st team skipper
Posts: 2,195
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Post by jr on Jan 9, 2023 10:20:00 GMT
Andy's post is absolutely spot on and there's very little I want to say on the matter that he hasn't already said (and probably articulated better than I would). Where Andy says the ejected fan was 1 person away from him, I was that 1 person so I witnessed the exchange with the steward at very close quarters. I am still absolutely fuming about what happened. It was unfair, disproportionate and carried out in a way that showed total disregard for this individual's rights, including the right to answer an accusation before being judged. From what I now gather it was the steward missed hearing what was said. I also used the same word during the game. Perhaps my pronunciation was clearer? I would go a step further. Funny, wasn't it, that the person in question was (clearly wrongly) accused of vaping and then suddenly a few minutes later he's apparently done something entirely different? Yeah, I don't think that was accidentally misheard by the person who was at the time observing him VERY closely. I think someone took a dislike to one of our fans and decided to go on a little power trip. The "homophobic" shout that definitely wasn't but maybe could have been misheard as one, was seen as a chance that could be jumped on after trying to start an argument about "vaping" didn't succeed in provoking him into losing his temper enough to be chucked out. Totally agree with all your other comments too. Also wanted to wait until I wasn't angry any more before posting but that's not coming any time soon. Well said Sarah. I’M still fuming too. I think we’ve all had to bite our tongue on this and can’t say what we really want to say. It certainly seems that they were looking for an excuse. If the first accusation is proved totally incorrect let’s try something else.
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Post by davep on Jan 9, 2023 10:45:23 GMT
It is said that with great power goes great responsibility. Sadly, in the case of football stewards, this doesn't appear to be the case.
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Post by Andy K on Jan 9, 2023 10:53:31 GMT
It is said that with great power goes great responsibility. Sadly, in the case of football stewards, this doesn't appear to be the case. Whilst I understand your sentiment, I think it's important to note that this case is very much an exception rather than a rule. In 36 years of following Sutton, I can't recall an incident like this and virtually no steward would behave in this manner, and certainly none of ours who volunteer for our club. So it's probably not helpful to imply that all football stewards would act like this, which even if that wasn't your intention, was how this came across.
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Post by davep on Jan 9, 2023 13:17:07 GMT
Certainly not my intention to imply that ALL football stewards act like this. However, I have encountered similar behaviour at other matches in the past - albeit never at Gander Green Lane.
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Post by terrier on Jan 9, 2023 16:50:33 GMT
Am I right to assume the club (SU) has now been made aware of this incident? I’m sure they’d take it up with Tranmere if they were notified.
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Post by halftimet on Jan 9, 2023 17:34:50 GMT
Someone could also contact Nicola Palios Vice Chairman of Tranmere if you have a twitter account. See the initial post on this thread.
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Post by Andy K on Jan 9, 2023 17:57:16 GMT
Am I right to assume the club (SU) has now been made aware of this incident? I’m sure they’d take it up with Tranmere if they were notified. Yes they were. The club are fully aware of the incident, plus additional details which would be inappropriate to share on a public forum.
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Post by Andy K on Jan 9, 2023 17:58:10 GMT
Someone could also contact Nicola Palios Vice Chairman of Tranmere if you have a twitter account. See the initial post on this thread. I don't think that would be useful at this time. As the club knows the details, it would be appropriate for any contact to happen via club officials.
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