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Post by sufc1898 on Jan 28, 2021 22:19:03 GMT
Whilst I appreciate this may not be for all can we please keep negativity of this post. Can I ask what that statement actually means? Am I allowed to disagree with this, if I am I will make my point and if I am not I will stay silent? |
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Post by sufc1898 on Jan 28, 2021 22:20:39 GMT
Can I ask what that statement actually means? Am I allowed to disagree with this, if I am I will make my point and if I am not I will stay silent? |
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Post by ADMIN on Jan 29, 2021 0:30:35 GMT
Whilst I appreciate this may not be for all can we please keep negativity of this post. Can I ask what that statement actually means? Am I allowed to disagree with this, if I am I will make my point and if I am not I will stay silent? Think we both know what it means to be honest OS. IF you have a point to make which you obviously do then please feel free |
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Post by Andy K on Jan 29, 2021 12:17:03 GMT
Whilst I appreciate this may not be for all can we please keep negativity of this post. Can I ask what that statement actually means? Am I allowed to disagree with this, if I am I will make my point and if I am not I will stay silent? For clarification I read it as please keep negativity OFF this post (a simple spelling error). As I presume this to be the case, and as this could potentially be a top to which some posters would have very strong opinions of, can I suggest that for the safety of all our members if you wish to make a negative comment that you do so in a private message to ADMIN. The purpose of this post isn't meant to be a discussion about whether we should or not do this initiative, but to get suggestions (in a constructive way) in moving it forward on the basis of inclusivity. We have supporters who would fall into the category defined by this and it would be wholly unfair to them to be treated to any form of discrimination when simply they have the same trait that is relevant to those who don't fall into that category i.e. they are supporters of Sutton United Football Club. |
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trev
1st team skipper
In Matt We Trust
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Post by trev on Jan 29, 2021 16:18:18 GMT
I know that the vast majority of our supporters are a very decent and considerate group of individuals, but as a brief addition to Andy's comments it is probably worth pointing out that not only would discriminating against any of our supporters be "wholly unfair", it would also be unlawful.
In particular, the Equality Act 2010 prohibits discriminating against anyone on the basis of their sexual orientation or gender reassignment. Hate speech is not free speech, and that applies whether it's a comment made publicly on this forum, or a private message to a fellow supporter.
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Post by sallycat on Jan 29, 2021 20:34:23 GMT
I think a lot of the time one of the main problems groups like this come up against is not overt discrimination but rather negative attitudes and push back from people who "don't see the need" for groups like this...just because they personally don't need or want them or don't understand why they're a good thing because they don't understand what discrimination feels like or the very real ways it can hurt people. But hopefully that won't happen here  |
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Post by os on Jan 29, 2021 23:56:57 GMT
Can I ask what that statement actually means? Am I allowed to disagree with this, if I am I will make my point and if I am not I will stay silent? Think we both know what it means to be honest OS. IF you have a point to make which you obviously do then please feel free OK, I must admit to be fascinated by some of the comments that followed this one, for those expecting a reincarnation of Alf Garnett. Trev, having a disabled son, I know all about the 2010 equalities act and have actually used it. To my view which actually refers to the setting up of groups like this, I feel the same about BLM too BTW. Being a kid of the 70s and growing up just across the road from GGL in them there council flats, I saw what it was like for Lesbian / Gay / Black and minorities in general. I have to agree with anyone who says it wasn't very nice or very comfortable and discrimination was rife. Over the past 40-50yrs there has been a massive improvement helped in my view by the removal of lines in the sand. To me true equality is where everyone is treated the same irrespective of race, creed or sexuality, it really doesn't matter. I am genuinely concerned that many want to put those lines back in to what has taken my generation many decades to remove. Why can't 'LGBTQ+' be 'LGBTQ+ H' then we can have a proud rainbow over all of us? Why can't BLM be ALM, they do don't they? I don't want to see people pigeon holed again, I don't want white male men seen as some form of leper colony, that isn't right either. I am also a bit of a history buff, and for anyone who doesn't know the story, look up Alan Turin, and the battle he had. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_TuringJust because we don't like all our history does not mean it didn't happen, and we should not erase it warts and all. We can only evoke changes in society by being together and not apart. I hope that explains a little, and happy to hear why I am wrong? |
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tonyd
1st team Player
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Post by tonyd on Jan 30, 2021 0:37:10 GMT
I’m a white man who has lived all my 69 years in South London. I know that white lives matter because I’ve never been stopped by the police for no apparent reason, have never felt I was the wrong colour to get a job or get served in a shop etc. I understand that for many people of colour that is not the case. BLM does not mean that black people should be treated specially, it means that Black Lives Matter as much as white lives. Similarly, as a heterosexual, I do not feel I have been mocked or discriminated against because of my sexual orientation. If the LBGTQ community feel the need to band together for support and to make the statement that LBGTQ lives matter, I quite understand. Good luck to them and I hope the day is not far away when this is not necessary.
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Post by ADMIN on Jan 30, 2021 2:43:12 GMT
Hi OS, Also a 70's kid here that was born on Collingwood Road and spent my first 20 years living there or Beaauchamp Road with my Dad living in Chaucer Gardens so spent all these years there, in Collingwood Rec or at Sutton United and TBH other than the "rumour" about the middle aged guy who lived in Chaucer House who was rumoured to be gay (probably because he was a single middle aged man) but other than that there was no one that was openly LGBT and very few BAME again I could name those whom were a similar age. As a Transgender person I was very aware of how people reacted to LGBT people in the media because at that time there were very few people who were openly out. 2021 and things are better but no they are not good and no being LGBTQ in today's society is not fabulous better yes but can we just get on with our lives now in 2021 the answer I am afraid is no. Let me tell you a bit about me....Many of you on here will have known the "old" me as I started going to Sutton Utd around 1979 and held various positions over the years...that person lived in the public eye as that person for 47 years. In those 47 years of acting as this person and those that knew "him" would say he was a bit of a lad and guess what I never had any trouble in all of those years. Before coming out in 2018 and for 18 years previous when I had the opportunity to go away for weekends to be who I could spend 10 minutes or more given you examples of verbal and Physical abuse I have received and we won't even talk about stuff that has happened online...over 2k hate messages thanks to Katie Hopkins for example...this is just my story and their are thousands if not more like it. I also run a helpline for Transgender people and know the person who runs the same helpline for Pride in Surrey, let me tell you these groups are needed. You may or may not have heard of Posie Parker a well supported activist who has just told men in USA to go into toilets with guns to protect their wives & children I kid you not. The communities are under attack just as much despite their being a lot more acceptance. Let me tell you something else and sorry for rambling but I am passionate, I have explained my love for Sutton United and when my news went public I did not think I would ever get to see Sutton again, I did not think I could face people I have known for over 40 years and was worried about the reaction, remember some of these people have known me since I was in single digits...I received various messages offering support from supporters to committee members with some wonderful offers that I was too embarrassed to take up but these people really made an effort so much so that I returned to a match and the response I received from those that knew me was amazing. This has got me thinking as I have seen the work that other clubs do with their LGBT goups...bet you there is an LGBTQ+ supporter out there that loves Sutton as much as we all do but they are to worried to go to a game? How good if they could buddy up with someone that is from their community and thus helping expand the community. This is just one of many examples I could give. Let's look at football as a whole.....how many Gay footballers are there? None that we know off not one....so does this mean that Gay people do not play football? Of course not there will be lots of Gay and Bisexual footballers but is football accepting? We do not really know do we, I as a Transgender Referee have had just minor issues and we do have a few match officials who are out but that is it. Groups like this will help promote the fact that football is for everyone regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation and will hopefully help a community and maybe educate a person or two along the way. I have sat with Alan Turing's statue in Manchester, a man who did wonders but got prosecuted for being Gay and ended up committing suicide, people today still feel that have no other option. As for BLM they are the ones being attacked so they are the important ones. All houses matter but you only send the fire engines to the ones on fire... Let's get a world where someone can play football at any level regardless of their sexual preference, a day when 2 people who are not your stereo typical M/F can walk down the street holding hands without suffering abuse, a day when a Trans person can just live their life and there will be no need for groups like this. At the moment the need for them is a high as ever especially with people's mental health. There will be no pressure for anyone to join the group but it will be open for all LGBTQ+ people and Allys Finally OS your suggestion for it to be LGBTQ+H I am sorry you feel left out but let me tell you something it is not a personal choice to be part of this community. Hope this answers some of your points. |
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Post by Andy K on Jan 30, 2021 14:36:38 GMT
Think we both know what it means to be honest OS. IF you have a point to make which you obviously do then please feel free OK, I must admit to be fascinated by some of the comments that followed this one, for those expecting a reincarnation of Alf Garnett. Trev, having a disabled son, I know all about the 2010 equalities act and have actually used it. To my view which actually refers to the setting up of groups like this, I feel the same about BLM too BTW. Being a kid of the 70s and growing up just across the road from GGL in them there council flats, I saw what it was like for Lesbian / Gay / Black and minorities in general. I have to agree with anyone who says it wasn't very nice or very comfortable and discrimination was rife. Over the past 40-50yrs there has been a massive improvement helped in my view by the removal of lines in the sand. To me true equality is where everyone is treated the same irrespective of race, creed or sexuality, it really doesn't matter. I am genuinely concerned that many want to put those lines back in to what has taken my generation many decades to remove. Why can't 'LGBTQ+' be 'LGBTQ+ H' then we can have a proud rainbow over all of us? Why can't BLM be ALM, they do don't they? I don't want to see people pigeon holed again, I don't want white male men seen as some form of leper colony, that isn't right either. I am also a bit of a history buff, and for anyone who doesn't know the story, look up Alan Turin, and the battle he had. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_TuringJust because we don't like all our history does not mean it didn't happen, and we should not erase it warts and all. We can only evoke changes in society by being together and not apart. I hope that explains a little, and happy to hear why I am wrong? Maybe I can help here. Whilst discrimination exists, then the need for those being discriminated against to stand up for equality exists. BLM is specifically aimed at a certain message i.e. the unfair treatment of blacks from police. Its message has been changed by those who found offence by it and didn't understand it. Unless you are subjected to those things, you can sympathise but you won't be able to fully understand. I remember in the not too distant past how monkey chants rang round GGL and other stadia, and I still see how some supporters view females supporters in a "what do they know about football and why are they here" sort of way. The bottom line is that if this is something you don't want to be a part of, then you don't have to be a part of it. But you could extend that argument to any other groups that exist within the club. You could even suggest that "Gandermonium" is not that different - a group of people with similar interests both in and outside of football coming together to form a group which could be perceived as the "official" Sutton United Fan Club. You may think that's silly, but the parallels exist, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to say to them they can't be doing that, in the same way we shouldn't be saying the same things to this group. If it's not for you, you don't need to take part. If it bothers you more than you are comfortable with, then that line in the sand is drawn by you, not them, especially if you truly believe that the "white man" would be seen as some sort of leper colony in a sport where the support is majority white men. |
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Post by sallycat on Jan 30, 2021 20:18:15 GMT
OS, with all due respect, the fact that (some of) your generation think you've solved the problem of discrimination is a very big part of the problem itself.
What your generation has done - and this is no small thing and very admirable indeed - is to make overt hate against certain groups socially unacceptable. That's great. But the thing is, discrimination is still there. It may not look the same as it did when you were a lad, but it's there all right. The problem is, it's not obvious from the outside any more like it used to be. It's much more subtle, because it has to be or you can't get away with it. So to you it might look like it isn't there at all, but believe me it is, and not only that but it's now a lot harder to tackle because subtly excluding someone is a lot harder to prove and call out than a whole bunch of football fans doing monkey chants in front of the camera.
When you stick together with other people who've experienced the same sort of nasty, subtle hatred and discrimination, it gets easier to stand up to it. When it's subtle you can end up questioning whether you're in the right, but if you're with others who have faced similar things then you can validate each other's experience and speak up about it with a united voice.
Adding +H to that would simply drown out those voices. As others have said, straight/cis people don't need a group to fight that discrimination because straight/cis people don't experience it. If you experience discrimination for other reasons, there are other groups for that. And I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I'm sure this doesn't mean straight people are excluded from the group altogether, as long as they are there in good faith.
I stand with those who have experienced homophobia, transphobia or anything else relevant to this thread and I would be more than happy to add my voice to yours whenever it would be helpful (and to shut up when it wouldn't).
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Post by os on Jan 30, 2021 22:35:44 GMT
I do want to respond properly to this thread, I feel a lot of hostility or pent up emotion flowing through some of the responses above. Remember its not the cause I have issue with, its the vehicle of choice chosen for the journey ahead which I question, again remember only question.
There are lots of groups I don't agree with and have not joined but that doesn't, I or anyone else is not entitled to make their view known. I am concerned we are entering a time of silencing views rather than open honest debate and education.
When you draw lines you make sides, and when you do that you are on your way to creating wars, I fear groups such as LGBTQ+ and BLM are attempts at equality through creating opposing forces rather than heeling forces.
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Post by Amber Aleman on Jan 30, 2021 22:45:04 GMT
I do want to respond properly to this thread, I feel a lot of hostility or pent up emotion flowing through some of the responses above. Remember its not the cause I have issue with, its the vehicle of choice chosen for the journey ahead which I question, again remember only question. There are lots of groups I don't agree with and have not joined but that doesn't, I or anyone else is not entitled to make their view known. I am concerned we are entering a time of silencing views rather than open honest debate and education. When you draw lines you make sides, and when you do that you are on your way to creating wars, I fear groups such as LGBTQ+ and BLM are attempts at equality through creating opposing forces rather than heeling forces. Would you feel the same if some Sutton supporters who happen to be disabled decided to form a Disabled Supporters' Group? |
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Post by os on Jan 30, 2021 23:00:04 GMT
I do want to respond properly to this thread, I feel a lot of hostility or pent up emotion flowing through some of the responses above. Remember its not the cause I have issue with, its the vehicle of choice chosen for the journey ahead which I question, again remember only question. There are lots of groups I don't agree with and have not joined but that doesn't, I or anyone else is not entitled to make their view known. I am concerned we are entering a time of silencing views rather than open honest debate and education. When you draw lines you make sides, and when you do that you are on your way to creating wars, I fear groups such as LGBTQ+ and BLM are attempts at equality through creating opposing forces rather than heeling forces. Would you feel the same if some Sutton supporters who happen to be disabled decided to form a Disabled Supporters' Group? Yes as my fight is for equality, no fence, no labels, no difference. The last place a disabled person wants to be is in a disabled group, that I do know. |
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Post by sallycat on Jan 31, 2021 8:44:17 GMT
While I see what you're trying to say and I do believe you are coming from a place of good intentions, I think you've misunderstood the purpose of groups like this one. It doesn't exist to draw lines and create labels, it exists so we can find ways to erase them. Those lines are not created by the members of the group, they are created by those who continue to discriminate against them and others who share certain characteristics with them. Furthermore, there is no fence, no separating line with this group, because nobody has said non-LGBTQ people can't join the group - so where is the separation?
Your approach (and I know this isn't what you mean by it, but the effect is the same) suggests we should all put our heads in the sand and pretend that subtle discrimination doesn't exist and everything is rosy. That would be nice and comfortable for those who don't experience that discrimination, wouldn't it? Not talking about a problem that doesn't affect you is a handy way to make it look like it's gone away - but that only benefits the straight/cis people and makes things even worse for the others. Because if we hide the problem but it carries on hurting those people, they will be believed and validated less and less.
This sort of group helps to address the very problem you're describing. One day hopefully we won't need those labels and big conversations about sexual and gender orientation any more, but having groups like this now is part of how we can get to that point. I'm sure we'd all agree with you that it would be much better not to have those lines and labels you describe, but they're currently imposed by society, not by the people who suffer ill treatment because of them and who are trying to tackle them through this kind of support and solidarity, so I think your approach is perhaps targeting the wrong people! Meanwhile, if you don't agree, well, the group clearly isn't for you and you don't have to join it and that's fine.
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