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Post by Andy K on Feb 3, 2021 11:32:56 GMT
I'd be amazed if he'd got it right in terms of how we now think in 2021, given that he died over 40 years ago. And yeah, being an exceptionally talented musician doesn't require a good understanding of social issues. Nobody's perfect. Or even the relevance. Lennon was a well known anti-war activist. He also famously mocked physical and mental disability on live television. |
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Post by os on Feb 3, 2021 23:28:57 GMT
Yes, a famous and talented pop star got something wrong. He meant well. But he got it wrong. Must be a first. For heaven's sake, OS. You have raised apparently serious minded queries about this whole matter. Which is fair enough. But this is a matter that is very close to home, for many here. Pay us all the respect of staying serious about it. For heavens sake how more serious can I be about this subject? The simple message is that we should live together rather than form splinter groups which only lead to derision in society. Since the advent of many of these groups, racism, and homophobia etc has been going up not down. For every member of these groups another member joins an anti- one, such as counterweight and the activists on both sides start provoking the other. When you talk about prejudice and yes it exists, I am not saying it doesn't or that is right in anyway. The most neglected and discriminated against are the disabled, they are not even entitled to the minimum wage, you can pay a mentally impaired person 50p per hour if you like. Autism has one of the lowest employment rates, in fact here are some facts : "Only 32% of autistic adults are in some kind of paid employment (compared to 80% of non-disabled people and 47% of disabled people) A mere 16% of autistic adults are in full-time paid employment. 40% of autistic adults working part-time want to work more hours. 77% of unemployed autistic adults want employment." I have been to court on this subject and I had one of the best barristers going, and guess what he was black. When I talk about this subject its because I am bloody serious about it, it is close to home and I don't believe in what I feel is a divisive route! |
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kpinwp
1st team Player
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Post by kpinwp on Feb 4, 2021 1:57:22 GMT
You could be more serious about it by not posting a ridiculously unrealistic and dreadfully sentimental pop song as some kind of reply to the very real-life points that people are putting to you?
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trev
1st team skipper
In Matt We Trust
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Post by trev on Feb 4, 2021 8:27:40 GMT
Yes, a famous and talented pop star got something wrong. He meant well. But he got it wrong. Must be a first. For heaven's sake, OS. You have raised apparently serious minded queries about this whole matter. Which is fair enough. But this is a matter that is very close to home, for many here. Pay us all the respect of staying serious about it. For heavens sake how more serious can I be about this subject? The simple message is that we should live together rather than form splinter groups which only lead to derision in society. Since the advent of many of these groups, racism, and homophobia etc has been going up not down. For every member of these groups another member joins an anti- one, such as counterweight and the activists on both sides start provoking the other. When you talk about prejudice and yes it exists, I am not saying it doesn't or that is right in anyway. The most neglected and discriminated against are the disabled, they are not even entitled to the minimum wage, you can pay a mentally impaired person 50p per hour if you like. Autism has one of the lowest employment rates, in fact here are some facts : "Only 32% of autistic adults are in some kind of paid employment (compared to 80% of non-disabled people and 47% of disabled people) A mere 16% of autistic adults are in full-time paid employment. 40% of autistic adults working part-time want to work more hours. 77% of unemployed autistic adults want employment." I have been to court on this subject and I had one of the best barristers going, and guess what he was black. When I talk about this subject its because I am bloody serious about it, it is close to home and I don't believe in what I feel is a divisive route! os' suggestion that hate crime against minority groups has spiked in recent years because they have formed their own organisations is as inflammatory as it is absurd. It's the worst kind of victim blaming. |
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Post by Nick the Greek/The Speshul One on Feb 4, 2021 8:51:43 GMT
Os is my opinion and my understanding.
This is about acceptance and the feeling of acceptance, finding like minded individuals who understand what you go through on a daily basis and raising awareness and the acceptance level.
It is very unlikely if you walked in to a pub, restaurant, football ground on your own or holding hands with your wife anyone would bat an eyelid. For some groups they do not get the same reaction, they get stares, comments, can see people talking about them or laughing about them. This is not right or fair, why should they be made to feel any different? I’m not saying you would be one of the people to even take notice, but you must be able to understand not everyone would have the same thought as you and act as you would.
Even simpler if you walked in to a Spurs pub wearing and Arsenal shirt, you would know you wouldn’t be accepted or just left to yourself. Now imagine if instead of life choice of being an Arsenal fan it was something that was just you, not something you choose but something that is part of your make up. As a white male football fan, there are very very few places that will not accept you, opposition’s pub, slightly fancier places that don’t like football shirts, but you can take that shirt off and continue with whatever you want to do. But what if you couldn’t, what if you everywhere you went may have the same level of judgement, every pub, every restaurant, would you not want to find like minded people to talk about it? Would you not then think that maybe there are others who would like to talk about but don’t feel comfortable? Why not make a group where you can? Is that divisive?
Militant on either side is wrong, but for a lot of situations that will be a last resort. If people where accepted as equal then there wouldn’t be groups.
At the start of the BLM movement I was of the opinion it was ALM, but I’ve not experienced racism. I then read a few bits and realised it is easy for me to say ALM but it wasn’t rig by because not all lives are considered equal. Not everyone receives the same level of acceptance I do. I’m not likely to get pulled over by the police because I drive a nice car, I’m not likely to be on the end of a stop and search. In America I’m considerably less likely to be in the end of police brutality or worse because I’m a white male.
The world is becoming a lot more accepting and a better place but it is because of these groups raising awareness not despite it.
As I say I write this a white straight male so I can’t write this having been in someone else’s shoes, but I can write it with understanding and empathy. These are my opinions but like ALM and BLM I’m willing to change them as I understand more.
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Post by Andy K on Feb 4, 2021 9:25:25 GMT
Yes, a famous and talented pop star got something wrong. He meant well. But he got it wrong. Must be a first. For heaven's sake, OS. You have raised apparently serious minded queries about this whole matter. Which is fair enough. But this is a matter that is very close to home, for many here. Pay us all the respect of staying serious about it. For heavens sake how more serious can I be about this subject? The simple message is that we should live together rather than form splinter groups which only lead to derision in society. Since the advent of many of these groups, racism, and homophobia etc has been going up not down. For every member of these groups another member joins an anti- one, such as counterweight and the activists on both sides start provoking the other. When you talk about prejudice and yes it exists, I am not saying it doesn't or that is right in anyway. The most neglected and discriminated against are the disabled, they are not even entitled to the minimum wage, you can pay a mentally impaired person 50p per hour if you like. Autism has one of the lowest employment rates, in fact here are some facts : "Only 32% of autistic adults are in some kind of paid employment (compared to 80% of non-disabled people and 47% of disabled people) A mere 16% of autistic adults are in full-time paid employment. 40% of autistic adults working part-time want to work more hours. 77% of unemployed autistic adults want employment." I have been to court on this subject and I had one of the best barristers going, and guess what he was black. When I talk about this subject its because I am bloody serious about it, it is close to home and I don't believe in what I feel is a divisive route! Wow. That is quite extraordinary. I'm not going to comment on the disabled stats that you've provided because I fully expect you know more than me on that matter. But are you really serious that racism and homophobia have been on the rise because of the rise of these groups? You really need to read into what has happened in the last 10 years or so to see that any rise in racism has been politically motivated, as it was in the 60s and 70s which I'm sure you're old enough to remember. Do you think that chap from Singapore, Jonathan Mok, got beaten up at the start of the pandemic because he was part of an anti-racist group? Or Stephen Lawrence got killed for the same reason? Or the 15 year old Sikh boy who got beaten up in Telford in November was a leading light in BLM? I could give plenty of other examples. Now you can reply with examples of people who have had violence against them because they were white and by these groups that cause that provocation? I'll be waiting. Just as ludicrous is your blanket assertion that homophobia is on the rise because of these groups. Firstly do you see full scale rioting at any pride marches? No, they're usually very peaceful. Do you see these groups actively trying to attack others that are different to them? No. Never. Like I've said to you time and time again, if they chose to come together because of similar interests or shared issues, that's their choice, not yours. It will never be yours, regardless of your own sense of self entitlement of an opinion which, from my point of view, is heading more and more in a direction that is more than uncomfortable for many. The icing on the cake of your post was "and guess what he was black". If you feel we should all live as one in harmony, then is doesn't matter what the colour of the skin of your barrister is. Why you felt the need to emphasise this just feels to me like the classic "I've got black mates" trope. Seriously Clive, you've made your opinion heard, but every time you reply you undermine your position time and time again. Maybe best just to walk away from this one? |
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Post by sufc1898 on Feb 4, 2021 10:53:07 GMT
Maybe walk away, and take your opinions with you.
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Post by sallycat on Feb 4, 2021 12:23:56 GMT
Crikey. Nobody is suggesting splinter groups or anything divisive. The purpose of the group is nothing like that and if you're going to assume it is then I'm afraid that just shows up your prejudice for what it is.
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Post by ADMIN on Feb 4, 2021 12:41:26 GMT
Have to say OS I think you will find there are more joining the support groups rather than the hate groups by a large margin so not sure where the source of your facts come from however these hate groups are partially being drowned out by the support groups and decent human beings who call the haters out..that’s a good thing right?
Not getting into discussions about disabled or people with autism etc and again making facts that they are the most neglected and discriminated group is a pretty bold statement but what I will say there are many in the lgbtq+ community who are also disabled and/or autistic /adhd etc
Sorry you feel that we should not have a safe group where we can bet together, offer support interact with other clubs and show the football world what a great club we are and that we welcome all with no prejudice and that barely touches the surface of the positive things this group can bring to many and we can also add our clubs name to the ever increasing list of clubs with lgbt groups. It is estimated 6% of the population are lgbt (source pride in football) so with our average attendance listed at nearly 2k that’s over 100 people per match.
Thank you to all for your input been some great comments and great to hear all your views 👍
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,248
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Post by kpinwp on Feb 4, 2021 12:54:24 GMT
Have to say OS I think you will find there are more joining the support groups rather than the hate groups by a large margin so not sure where the source of your facts come from however these hate groups are partially being drowned out by the support groups and decent human beings who call the haters out..that’s a good thing right? Not getting into discussions about disabled or people with autism etc and again making facts that they are the most neglected and discriminated group is a pretty bold statement but what I will say there are many in the lgbtq+ community who are also disabled and/or autistic /adhd etc Sorry you feel that we should not have a safe group where we can bet together, offer support interact with other clubs and show the football world what a great club we are and that we welcome all with no prejudice and that barely touches the surface of the positive things this group can bring to many and we can also add our clubs name to the ever increasing list of clubs with lgbt groups. It is estimated 6% of the population are lgbt (source pride in football) so with our average attendance listed at nearly 2k that’s over 100 people per match. Thank you to all for your input been some great comments and great to hear all your views 👍 A pleasure. Full support and best of luck to you and to the group. |
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Post by VCLXI on Feb 12, 2021 14:34:47 GMT
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Post by sallycat on Feb 12, 2021 14:55:43 GMT
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