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Post by Andy K on Jan 31, 2021 13:12:42 GMT
Would you feel the same if some Sutton supporters who happen to be disabled decided to form a Disabled Supporters' Group? Yes as my fight is for equality, no fence, no labels, no difference. The last place a disabled person wants to be is in a disabled group, that I do know. So we should disband the disability team as well? By your logic why should they have their own team? You see why I suggested you PM'd ADMIN instead of putting it in public. I doubt there is any hostility to you on here on this matter (contrary to what you think), but just take a step back and see what you are saying. It's not the case. |
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Post by sallycat on Jan 31, 2021 13:25:34 GMT
Certainly no hostility from me. Just an eagerness to make sure people who mean well don't inadvertently contribute to the problem they seek to eradicate.
I wasn't going to say, but actually I'm part of two disability groups formed and led by disabled people. One is an autism group and the other is a disability equality network. So that statement is simply incorrect anyway. It's probably not for people who don't belong to a certain category to say those people don't want equality groups. Many don't, it's true. They don't have to join them. But (if I may digress) in my experience, it's not this sort of group a lot of disabled people object to anyway - it's the sort of enforced separation of disabled and non-disabled people that happens when non-disabled people refuse to share spaces with disabled people and tell them to form their own separate groups for sports, hobbies, education, politics and so on because the able-bodied people don't want to have to accommodate the adjustments they need to make to include disabled people. This isn't that.
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kpinwp
1st team Player
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Post by kpinwp on Jan 31, 2021 18:32:13 GMT
OS, progress made against prejudice is not necessarily progress sustained. Take the case of the resurgence of antisemitism. To keep things reasonablly uncontentious (I hope), I would argue that the existence of certain specifically Jewish political groupings in the UK is both understandable and quite necessary. I'm directly supportive of one of them but, as a non-Jew, do not presume to take part in any steering of the group.
I'm yet another '70s kid, of Irish ancestry and name. I clearly recall quite how unpopular one could feel in that decade, 'being Irish' despite being English. Standing at bus stops listening to old people opining that the Irish were 'a stupid and violent race', and then some. It's remarkable how your own society can, all of a sudden, not be. It's the only experience I've had to put up with of being 'othered' in the very place that I live. But it certainly taught me a lesson.
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Post by os on Jan 31, 2021 20:11:15 GMT
Yes as my fight is for equality, no fence, no labels, no difference. The last place a disabled person wants to be is in a disabled group, that I do know. So we should disband the disability team as well? By your logic why should they have their own team? You see why I suggested you PM'd ADMIN instead of putting it in public. I doubt there is any hostility to you on here on this matter (contrary to what you think), but just take a step back and see what you are saying. It's not the case. I have absolutely nothing to hide or be ashamed of in posting my views, I am quite happy to provoke debate on this subject. No I don't think the Dis team should be disbanded, that is just silly and not what I am saying. I am tied up at the moment but as soon as I get time I will answer or at least give my opinion on all points raised.. |
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Post by os on Feb 1, 2021 23:58:57 GMT
Certainly no hostility from me. Just an eagerness to make sure people who mean well don't inadvertently contribute to the problem they seek to eradicate. I think you have sort of actually made my point in reverse. |
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Post by mca on Feb 2, 2021 10:01:56 GMT
Think we both know what it means to be honest OS. IF you have a point to make which you obviously do then please feel free OK, I must admit to be fascinated by some of the comments that followed this one, for those expecting a reincarnation of Alf Garnett. Trev, having a disabled son, I know all about the 2010 equalities act and have actually used it. To my view which actually refers to the setting up of groups like this, I feel the same about BLM too BTW. Being a kid of the 70s and growing up just across the road from GGL in them there council flats, I saw what it was like for Lesbian / Gay / Black and minorities in general. I have to agree with anyone who says it wasn't very nice or very comfortable and discrimination was rife. Over the past 40-50yrs there has been a massive improvement helped in my view by the removal of lines in the sand. To me true equality is where everyone is treated the same irrespective of race, creed or sexuality, it really doesn't matter. I am genuinely concerned that many want to put those lines back in to what has taken my generation many decades to remove. Why can't 'LGBTQ+' be 'LGBTQ+ H' then we can have a proud rainbow over all of us? Why can't BLM be ALM, they do don't they? I don't want to see people pigeon holed again, I don't want white male men seen as some form of leper colony, that isn't right either. I am also a bit of a history buff, and for anyone who doesn't know the story, look up Alan Turin, and the battle he had. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_TuringJust because we don't like all our history does not mean it didn't happen, and we should not erase it warts and all. We can only evoke changes in society by being together and not apart. I hope that explains a little, and happy to hear why I am wrong? anyone who says it should be "all lives matter" in instead of " black lives matter" is either stupid, being deliberately stupid to get a reaction, or racist. To start your argument from that point is not worth debate |
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Post by JK on Feb 2, 2021 11:16:07 GMT
anyone who says it should be "all lives matter" in instead of " black lives matter" is either stupid, being deliberately stupid to get a reaction, or racist. To start your argument from that point is not worth debate All men are equal. It's not racist to say all lives matter. Trying to elevate one group over another is wrong and causes division by default. True equality is when all differences are thrown away and everyone is treated neutrally. Personally I do not care about other people's attributes. Only how they act. Treat as you find on a person by person rule. Talking to a friend of mine. He saY's even LGBTQ members themselves hate other members for being too militant and trying to make their cause seem more special than it is. He also tells me true members of the community do not want special treatment or clubs or groups or any other form of segregation. Just to be accepted, but obviously it is not one size fits all. We should not have time for people wishing to divide nations. Only for those that want to bring them together as one. |
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Post by mca on Feb 2, 2021 11:20:37 GMT
anyone who says it should be "all lives matter" in instead of " black lives matter" is either stupid, being deliberately stupid to get a reaction, or racist. To start your argument from that point is not worth debate All men are equal. It's not racist to say all lives matter. Trying to elevate one group over another is wrong and causes division by default. True equality is when all differences are thrown away and everyone is treated neutrally. Personally I do not care about other people's attributes. Only how they act. Treat as you find on a person by person rule. Talking to a friend of mine. He saY's even LGBTQ members themselves hate other members for being too militant and trying to make their cause seem more special than it is. He also tells me true members of the community do not want special treatment or clubs or groups or any other form of segregation. Just to be accepted, but obviously it is not one size fits all. We should not have time for people wishing to divide nations. Only for those that want to bring them together as one. in the context of BLM, it actually is racist to change it to all lives matter. Ages ago, I googled "best explanation of blm". Theres loads of videos from celebrities/sports people/ activists at the sharp end of it, giving simple, non aggressive explanations. If you, or OS havnt done that, thats surprising because you seem to have forthright opinions, but if you have , and think the explanations are irrelevant, or wrong, I'd say you're racist. Im white, I have no business explaining the difference to you. Maybe check it out and decide |
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trev
1st team skipper
In Matt We Trust
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Post by trev on Feb 2, 2021 11:52:03 GMT
anyone who says it should be "all lives matter" in instead of " black lives matter" is either stupid, being deliberately stupid to get a reaction, or racist. To start your argument from that point is not worth debate All men are equal. It's not racist to say all lives matter. Trying to elevate one group over another is wrong and causes division by default. True equality is when all differences are thrown away and everyone is treated neutrally. Personally I do not care about other people's attributes. Only how they act. Treat as you find on a person by person rule. Talking to a friend of mine. He saY's even LGBTQ members themselves hate other members for being too militant and trying to make their cause seem more special than it is. He also tells me true members of the community do not want special treatment or clubs or groups or any other form of segregation. Just to be accepted, but obviously it is not one size fits all. We should not have time for people wishing to divide nations. Only for those that want to bring them together as one. Your observations are seriously misguided. We are not all equal. This is precisely why we have the Equality Act 2010 and other pre-existing anti-discrimination legislation, in express recognition of the fact that some people have different characteristics which require the law's protection. Correspondingly, true equality is not when "all differences are thrown away and everyone is treated neutrally" as you suggest. As Justice Blackmun of the US Supreme Court observed, "In order to get beyond racism, we must first take account of race. And in order to treat some persons equally, we must treat them differently." Our legal system expressly recognises this. The Equal Treatment Bench Book (all 427 pages of it) provides detailed guidance on reasonable adjustments which judges should make when hearing cases involving persons from certain groups in society e.g. disabled persons, transgender people, children, young people and vulnerable adults. This is not to "elevate one group over another" as you suggest. Rather, it is to ensure that steps are taken, where appropriate, to redress any inequality arising from difference or disadvantage. This is the way in which true equality is achieved, not by treating everybody the same. Indeed, to do so would be unfair, unlawful and discriminatory. Which also happens to be why having a Sutton LGBTQ+ supporters' group is an excellent idea. |
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tonyd
1st team Player
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Post by tonyd on Feb 2, 2021 12:35:37 GMT
anyone who says it should be "all lives matter" in instead of " black lives matter" is either stupid, being deliberately stupid to get a reaction, or racist. To start your argument from that point is not worth debate All men are equal. It's not racist to say all lives matter. Trying to elevate one group over another is wrong and causes division by default. True equality is when all differences are thrown away and everyone is treated neutrally. Personally I do not care about other people's attributes. Only how they act. Treat as you find on a person by person rule. Talking to a friend of mine. He saY's even LGBTQ members themselves hate other members for being too militant and trying to make their cause seem more special than it is. He also tells me true members of the community do not want special treatment or clubs or groups or any other form of segregation. Just to be accepted, but obviously it is not one size fits all. We should not have time for people wishing to divide nations. Only for those that want to bring them together as one. I’m sorry, but the very basis of your argument is wrong. Trying to achieve the same treatment as the majority by definition is not trying to elevate one group over another. Similarly, the same treatment as the majority, by definition cannot be asking for special treatment. |
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Post by Andy K on Feb 2, 2021 13:37:03 GMT
anyone who says it should be "all lives matter" in instead of " black lives matter" is either stupid, being deliberately stupid to get a reaction, or racist. To start your argument from that point is not worth debate All men are equal. It's not racist to say all lives matter. Trying to elevate one group over another is wrong and causes division by default. True equality is when all differences are thrown away and everyone is treated neutrally. Personally I do not care about other people's attributes. Only how they act. Treat as you find on a person by person rule. Talking to a friend of mine. He saY's even LGBTQ members themselves hate other members for being too militant and trying to make their cause seem more special than it is. He also tells me true members of the community do not want special treatment or clubs or groups or any other form of segregation. Just to be accepted, but obviously it is not one size fits all. We should not have time for people wishing to divide nations. Only for those that want to bring them together as one. All men are equal. What about the women? All lives do matter. Including every "militant" LGBTQ member or any BLM supporters and of course every woman, who you seemed to have forgotten in your description. How they decide to show their passion, beliefs or well understood feelings that compared to others their lives don't matter based on their sexual orientation or simply the colour of their skin it entirely up to them and that in turn can manifest itself with disagreements within that sector. It's no different to us. We all, without question, want Sutton to do fantastically. But we all have our own opinions in how that is achieved, and disagreements happen. If one feels the need to comment on how they show that, then I'm sorry then the prejudice is evident in that person, especially when one feels the need to comment on social groups that they are not a part of. How those people live their lives and how they want to level up the playing field is up to them. This isn't an unfounded and bigoted ideal like jingoism, this is more about people being proud of who and what they are but in no way whatsoever they thinking they are better than anyone else. |
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Post by sallycat on Feb 2, 2021 15:10:13 GMT
anyone who says it should be "all lives matter" in instead of " black lives matter" is either stupid, being deliberately stupid to get a reaction, or racist. To start your argument from that point is not worth debate All men are equal. It's not racist to say all lives matter. Trying to elevate one group over another is wrong and causes division by default. True equality is when all differences are thrown away and everyone is treated neutrally. Personally I do not care about other people's attributes. Only how they act. Treat as you find on a person by person rule. Talking to a friend of mine. He saY's even LGBTQ members themselves hate other members for being too militant and trying to make their cause seem more special than it is. He also tells me true members of the community do not want special treatment or clubs or groups or any other form of segregation. Just to be accepted, but obviously it is not one size fits all. We should not have time for people wishing to divide nations. Only for those that want to bring them together as one. Do you seriously believe we have achieved equality? That discrimination like sexism, racism and homophobia don't exist any more? Because while they still exist - and they very much do even if it is more subtle than the 20th century variety - we don't have equality and we need to carry on working at it until we do. If you're a straight white man then you won't experience those things on the regular like other people do. Either you don't understand that other people's experiences of life aren't the same as your own, or you aren't comfortable with taking your share of our collective responsibility to work towards achieving equality. Choosing not to see that other people are treated differently from yourself (or as you put it, "I do not care about other people's attributes") is refusing to acknowledge that people who don't look like you are still experiencing abuse and discrimination because of who they are. Choosing to ignore the problem makes you a part of it. |
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Post by os on Feb 2, 2021 22:51:14 GMT
So this guy got it all wrong then ?
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,248
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Post by kpinwp on Feb 3, 2021 1:14:08 GMT
Yes, a famous and talented pop star got something wrong. He meant well. But he got it wrong. Must be a first.
For heaven's sake, OS. You have raised apparently serious minded queries about this whole matter. Which is fair enough. But this is a matter that is very close to home, for many here. Pay us all the respect of staying serious about it.
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Post by sallycat on Feb 3, 2021 10:59:44 GMT
I'd be amazed if he'd got it right in terms of how we now think in 2021, given that he died over 40 years ago.
And yeah, being an exceptionally talented musician doesn't require a good understanding of social issues. Nobody's perfect.
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