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Post by halftimet on Dec 16, 2023 23:48:37 GMT
Del, Don’t hold your breath. We have been talking on this forum about changing the way we play for the last 8 months if not more. We have been well and truly sussed out.
There is no point in flogging a dead horse.
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Post by fourfourtwo on Dec 16, 2023 23:50:28 GMT
This calendar year has been poor for away results. Performances against an already relegated Rochdale and then at Doncaster spring to mind as some of the worst. But today, against a quality side who took full advantage, that was woeful. Stockport got their tactics spot on, but it’s so obvious how to do that these days. Overloading the full backs, particularly on the opposite side to what Beautyman is on and it’s free men and easy balls in every time. The lack of marking in the box was beyond school boy defending. Smith looked embarrassed walking past after being subbed, Milsom looked upset at full time and Harry ran himself into the ground. Do the others care enough? Even just someone getting booked for a stupid foul, make a statement that you can’t just be played through. This team are too nice and too easy to play against. Some people might see this as just another defeat, but that wasn’t a freak result, that has been coming and it’s going to be damaging to squad morale.
It’s easy to apologise to a camera in an empty stadium. It’s much harder to look your fans in the eye at full time and apologise. The management should be front and centre of the players and taking responsibility for that. If ‘we’re all in this together’ the management need to take a lead rather than a meagre clap of acknowledgment from halfway across the pitch behind the players.
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markf
Top Performer
Posts: 3,310
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Post by markf on Dec 17, 2023 0:22:38 GMT
I think the fact that Sam and Omar were both withdrawn at ht suggests neither were anywhere near 100% match fit and probably Rob Milsom wasn't able to do anymore than a half either. By the way, we conceded four goals in each half not all 8 when Sam was on the pitch. Get some perspective.
I note Pinewalker on Hart's back again but he is not alone as individual players were being picked out by a minority of the 94 in attendance too.
IMO, the first half performance was a collective of disarray. We failed to defend from 1 to 11. Madden ran the show and if it wasn't him being picked up in the middle it was another home player.
We did have one glorious second half chance to score but blew it. That came from another poor linesman decision as Aiden was well off side to start the move but as for their first goal the lino was behind play and couldn't give it. The move that led to the f-k for their first involved an obvious offside. Not that it would have mattered; just delayed the start of the onslaught.
County have been going on about their own injury woes but it can't be that bad if they can leave their top scorer on the bench for an hour or is it just the huge difference in budgets between the two clubs?
Well done to the younger element of our travelling support today for singing throughout and displaying some interesting gallows humour.
As for some of our older element what is the point of shelling out all that dosh, enduring the misery of our appalling rail system to slag off our players, in some cases,appear to mutter the same comment over and over again as if heading for a nervous breakdown? You're better off spending Saturday afternoon in the pub or maybe even ASDA etc.
I can't say I enjoyed this today but I will give credit to County for some lovely football that we just couldn't cope with.
For the record 8 0 is Sutton's post WWII record defeat. This one was the first since Norwich in 89 and previous to that to a Chelsea team in a pre season friendly in 1972. I witnessed them all.
Of those 3, one would have to consider this to be the most galling but I would argue the 4 1 FA Cup reverse at Yeading in 1986 was even more so.
I have often said our time in the EFL has been and would be a roller coaster ride. This match saw the big dipper really dip low. But then, I never thought I would see SUFC in the EFL so I just enjoy or endure depending on how the match pans out. Today was sadly the latter.
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Post by wisemensay on Dec 17, 2023 1:50:18 GMT
If today was a one-off, a freak result, I'd no doubt be pissed off, but I'd be able to reconcile myself with the fact that sometimes, poor results happen. But today was the culmination in what has to be one of the worst calendar years in the clubs history. In the league in 2023, we have played 43, won 9, drawn 13, lost 21, scored 49 and conceded 76. This has given us 40 points, a goal difference of -27, and a PPG of 0.93 - which, when expanded out for 3 more matches to a 46-game season gives us 43 points.
43 points and a GD of -27 would have got us relegated in every season in League 2 history, dating back to the divisional re-brand for 2004-05. The only exception would have been 2008-09, when Bournemouth were deducted 17 points and Luton 30, and if you put those points back to focus on on-field, we're down then as well.
The reason this is pertinent is because this covers 2 seasons, 2 very different squads, but both led by Matt. We had a squad the delivered 5 months of football, lost large parts of it, rebuilt it, delivered another 4 months of football, and have won 9 times in that matter. There is a deep underlying problem here, and we're going back to the National League quickly, only without the 3G pitch and its relevant incomes, and a much more expensive, full-time squad. Will firing Matt Gray fix it and save us from relegation? I have absolutely no idea. The odds and squads say to me that it probably won't. But what I do know is that if we do nothing, we will go down.
And what is pissing me off on top is that I have seen people, both here and on other social media platforms, still trotting the usual "little old Sutton, aren't we such a nice little club", either suggesting or outright saying that we're too small to succeed here (patent nonsense) or that a particularly pissed off reaction today is throwing a tantrum - it's been confirmed that this is our worst league result since at least the War. We've played 3,030 league matches since the post-War resumption. That's at minimum, excluding injury time, 272,700 minutes of football. 4,545 hours of football. 189 days, or over 6 months solid football. So delivering our worst performance in over 3,000 matches, yeah, I'd say that's tantrum-worthy. Be pissed off. Throw the toys, spit the dummy, be monumentally raging like I am.
Thanks for the memories Matt, but it's time to go.
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Post by boomboom on Dec 17, 2023 6:39:10 GMT
For whatever reason and despite his best efforts, it does seem that Matt can’t get a new tune out of these players. I don’t think it’s disloyal to suggest that Either they collectively are not up to League 2 or it’s gone stale.Danny Crowley is available -is that someone to consider, needs a fresh challenge to get back on track so might he be tempted? The two aren't, of course, necessarily mutually exclusive. Whether individual players are of the required standard ultimately depends on one's subjective view. Personally, I have doubts that a (very small) number of them are. Regarding the managerial position, I guess that in any walk of life, staleness eventually starts to set in - with a new broom benefitting both employer and employee - and that can apply to football managers as much as anyone else. However, I believe there's perhaps another factor that almost never gets mentioned on here. It does seem we suffer far more injuries than most and not just this season, albeit last term we did somehow manager to grind out results. IF that is true (unfortunately I doubt relevant stats are available to demonstrate one way or the other) it stretches the bounds of credibility to believe they can be solely attributed to randomness and chance. So, are we recruiting players who tend to be injury prone and/or is the club's fitness/rehabilitation/training regime all that it might be?
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Post by ggl on Dec 17, 2023 7:19:10 GMT
If today was a one-off, a freak result, I'd no doubt be pissed off, but I'd be able to reconcile myself with the fact that sometimes, poor results happen. But today was the culmination in what has to be one of the worst calendar years in the clubs history. In the league in 2023, we have played 43, won 9, drawn 13, lost 21, scored 49 and conceded 76. This has given us 40 points, a goal difference of -27, and a PPG of 0.93 - which, when expanded out for 3 more matches to a 46-game season gives us 43 points. 43 points and a GD of -27 would have got us relegated in every season in League 2 history, dating back to the divisional re-brand for 2004-05. The only exception would have been 2008-09, when Bournemouth were deducted 17 points and Luton 30, and if you put those points back to focus on on-field, we're down then as well. The reason this is pertinent is because this covers 2 seasons, 2 very different squads, but both led by Matt. We had a squad the delivered 5 months of football, lost large parts of it, rebuilt it, delivered another 4 months of football, and have won 9 times in that matter. There is a deep underlying problem here, and we're going back to the National League quickly, only without the 3G pitch and its relevant incomes, and a much more expensive, full-time squad. Will firing Matt Gray fix it and save us from relegation? I have absolutely no idea. The odds and squads say to me that it probably won't. But what I do know is that if we do nothing, we will go down. And what is pissing me off on top is that I have seen people, both here and on other social media platforms, still trotting the usual "little old Sutton, aren't we such a nice little club", either suggesting or outright saying that we're too small to succeed here (patent nonsense) or that a particularly pissed off reaction today is throwing a tantrum - it's been confirmed that this is our worst league result since at least the War. We've played 3,030 league matches since the post-War resumption. That's at minimum, excluding injury time, 272,700 minutes of football. 4,545 hours of football. 189 days, or over 6 months solid football. So delivering our worst performance in over 3,000 matches, yeah, I'd say that's tantrum-worthy. Be pissed off. Throw the toys, spit the dummy, be monumentally raging like I am. Thanks for the memories Matt, but it's time to go. Superb post in my opinion , thank you . Earlier I was guilty of a small club , small budget post and I still stick to that , but to justify my reasoning on this subject is to say that I appreciate that we have limited financial resources compared to at least most clubs in this division so cannot afford to get more players in easily like others can . With regards to our current squad I’m not going to call out individual players but instead question whether some are just not good enough or just don’t care enough because ultimately they do not give a shite about our club and the shirt that they are wearing . After all at the end of the season I guessing most will leave to stay in League football whilst we go back to the NL . Yes , I am seriously pissed off about not just yesterday’s rout but about the whole season but I do not have the answer to fix it without a bucketful of cash . Would just a bucketful be enough ? In all my decades of supporting “my” club I have NEVER once questioned whether a player has cared about wearing our shirt and representing SUFC on the pitch , but now I do . I do not doubt for a second that Matt does care very passionately and in truth I feel very sorry for him at the moment because if I were him I would not want Monday morning to come round very quickly and have to look some of those gutless players in the eye . I would suggest that some of them grow a pair and fight for this bloody wonderful club next time they are given the privilege of representing it instead of just going through the motions . Rant over now !
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markf
Top Performer
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Post by markf on Dec 17, 2023 7:49:17 GMT
Blimey Wiseman, you posted that at gone 2am. To amass all those calculations at such an hour suggests a sleepless night on the back of that result or a particular boring and under productive night shift. Impressive.
As for the little Sutton aura I think I would rather take that than the piss taking option currently available to others, anytime.
Dos used to say the club was punching above its weight in the NL. I don't recall too many dissenting voices at the time. If that's the case what is being in the EFL?
When we got promoted, I decided as a long term supporter, to try and enjoy it while it lasted. Bigger grounds, bigger crowds etc. I am trying to maintain that ethos although yesterday as I said was more endure.
If we are unable to compete at the level and our current away record on its own suggests exactly that, whether that be for financial reasons or whole host of other factors, I would rather we didn't jeapordise our near 126 year history by chucking dosh we haven't got at it in the hope that form turns around.
Perhaps SUFC reached its Zenith in that first EFL season and the difficulty (for us) in sustaining that level is now all too apparent? Only the coming months and the fabled January window will tell.
It will be a sadness if we are to go down but perhaps,bizarrely, we are still in touch of the third from bottom club and who knows what may happen to the likes of Reading and others. Maybe that is too much wishful thinking.
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Post by strandedhatter on Dec 17, 2023 9:14:25 GMT
If today was a one-off, a freak result, I'd no doubt be pissed off, but I'd be able to reconcile myself with the fact that sometimes, poor results happen. But today was the culmination in what has to be one of the worst calendar years in the clubs history. In the league in 2023, we have played 43, won 9, drawn 13, lost 21, scored 49 and conceded 76. This has given us 40 points, a goal difference of -27, and a PPG of 0.93 - which, when expanded out for 3 more matches to a 46-game season gives us 43 points. 43 points and a GD of -27 would have got us relegated in every season in League 2 history, dating back to the divisional re-brand for 2004-05. The only exception would have been 2008-09, when Bournemouth were deducted 17 points and Luton 30, and if you put those points back to focus on on-field, we're down then as well. The reason this is pertinent is because this covers 2 seasons, 2 very different squads, but both led by Matt. We had a squad the delivered 5 months of football, lost large parts of it, rebuilt it, delivered another 4 months of football, and have won 9 times in that matter. There is a deep underlying problem here, and we're going back to the National League quickly, only without the 3G pitch and its relevant incomes, and a much more expensive, full-time squad. Will firing Matt Gray fix it and save us from relegation? I have absolutely no idea. The odds and squads say to me that it probably won't. But what I do know is that if we do nothing, we will go down. And what is pissing me off on top is that I have seen people, both here and on other social media platforms, still trotting the usual "little old Sutton, aren't we such a nice little club", either suggesting or outright saying that we're too small to succeed here (patent nonsense) or that a particularly pissed off reaction today is throwing a tantrum - it's been confirmed that this is our worst league result since at least the War. We've played 3,030 league matches since the post-War resumption. That's at minimum, excluding injury time, 272,700 minutes of football. 4,545 hours of football. 189 days, or over 6 months solid football. So delivering our worst performance in over 3,000 matches, yeah, I'd say that's tantrum-worthy. Be pissed off. Throw the toys, spit the dummy, be monumentally raging like I am. Thanks for the memories Matt, but it's time to go. 43 points would see a team in League 2 survive in 8 and go down in 10 of the 18 completed seasons (I didn't include 19/20) since the rebranding as League 2. Relegation in: 05/06; 09/10; 10/11; 11/12; 12/13; 13/14; 16/17; 17/18; 20/21; 22/23. Survival in: 04/05; 06/07; 07/08; 08/09; 14/15; 15/16; 18/19; 21/22. Even 2008/09 Grimsby (41) and Chester (37) were below 43 points without points deductions. It's looking bleak for you guys but survival is not impossible. Back in 2005/06 we (Stockport County) were adrift at the bottom with no hope of survival after a 6-0 drubbing on Boxing Day against Macclesfield. We were dreadful and that was our second 6-0 defeat that season. Chris Turner got sacked and Jim Gannon came in for his first spell as manager, keeping us up on the last day of the season. I hope you stay up. I like seeing Sutton United as a league club.
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Post by garethl on Dec 17, 2023 9:18:19 GMT
In the cold light of day Colchester have lost 5 in a row and Forest Green look in a worse state than we do. It’s still there for us. Giving up shouldn’t be on the agenda, fight for everything. I get people don’t like losing and certainly not badly but getting on players/management/boards back will not help one bit. We have to be different and fully pull together. Perhaps yesterday will be the nadir. I think Matt will absolutely know who isn’t cut out for this level and I still think it can be turned around by him. But you’d think we have to find a way to get 3 points from 1 of Mansfield, AFCW or Gillingham to keep us in touch for when the fixtures (and injury list) ease a bit. Yet again yesterday, and it may be overlooked because we had some back we had players starting who were clearly not totally fit or match fit, we were without our first choice centre half pairing. We have Eastmond coming back - he’ll add quality, belief and a competitive edge. We can still do it.
In a relegation battle you can afford to lose games, you can afford to take the odd beating but you have to keep bouncing back up and put it all in to go for the next 3 points.
I can’t believe that players aren’t trying, that rarely happens, it’s just a fan’s go to when things happen like yesterday. We’ve been putting it in quite clearly in the last few league games to remain unbeaten, why would we sack it off 2 weeks later? The problems would have been structural, playing a good side who punished us properly, decision making, confidence etc. Am sure we’ve played a few games where the opposition have had as many, if not more chances, this season.
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Post by Amber Aleman on Dec 17, 2023 9:25:41 GMT
Yesterday's debacle was the culmination of a series of poor performances stretching back to last April. The intermittent good performance may have disguised the underlying problems.
I don't think the team played much worse at Stockport than against Salford and Doncaster in October. But yesterday we were facing a team whose finishing was of a higher order, and who'd clearly been given a rocket by their manager after Wednesday's FA Cup exit. We just weren't prepared. Before the game I said it was important not to concede early. Instead we went behind on 6 minutes and were 4-0 down inside 25. Stockport might have taken their foot off the gas in the second half, but didn't. They made their statement on the pitch. It's hard to see our players doing likewise any time soon.
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Post by wisemensay on Dec 17, 2023 10:51:47 GMT
If today was a one-off, a freak result, I'd no doubt be pissed off, but I'd be able to reconcile myself with the fact that sometimes, poor results happen. But today was the culmination in what has to be one of the worst calendar years in the clubs history. In the league in 2023, we have played 43, won 9, drawn 13, lost 21, scored 49 and conceded 76. This has given us 40 points, a goal difference of -27, and a PPG of 0.93 - which, when expanded out for 3 more matches to a 46-game season gives us 43 points. 43 points and a GD of -27 would have got us relegated in every season in League 2 history, dating back to the divisional re-brand for 2004-05. The only exception would have been 2008-09, when Bournemouth were deducted 17 points and Luton 30, and if you put those points back to focus on on-field, we're down then as well. The reason this is pertinent is because this covers 2 seasons, 2 very different squads, but both led by Matt. We had a squad the delivered 5 months of football, lost large parts of it, rebuilt it, delivered another 4 months of football, and have won 9 times in that matter. There is a deep underlying problem here, and we're going back to the National League quickly, only without the 3G pitch and its relevant incomes, and a much more expensive, full-time squad. Will firing Matt Gray fix it and save us from relegation? I have absolutely no idea. The odds and squads say to me that it probably won't. But what I do know is that if we do nothing, we will go down. And what is pissing me off on top is that I have seen people, both here and on other social media platforms, still trotting the usual "little old Sutton, aren't we such a nice little club", either suggesting or outright saying that we're too small to succeed here (patent nonsense) or that a particularly pissed off reaction today is throwing a tantrum - it's been confirmed that this is our worst league result since at least the War. We've played 3,030 league matches since the post-War resumption. That's at minimum, excluding injury time, 272,700 minutes of football. 4,545 hours of football. 189 days, or over 6 months solid football. So delivering our worst performance in over 3,000 matches, yeah, I'd say that's tantrum-worthy. Be pissed off. Throw the toys, spit the dummy, be monumentally raging like I am. Thanks for the memories Matt, but it's time to go. 43 points would see a team in League 2 survive in 8 and go down in 10 of the 18 completed seasons (I didn't include 19/20) since the rebranding as League 2. Relegation in: 05/06; 09/10; 10/11; 11/12; 12/13; 13/14; 16/17; 17/18; 20/21; 22/23. Survival in: 04/05; 06/07; 07/08; 08/09; 14/15; 15/16; 18/19; 21/22. Even 2008/09 Grimsby (41) and Chester (37) were below 43 points without points deductions. It's looking bleak for you guys but survival is not impossible. Back in 2005/06 we (Stockport County) were adrift at the bottom with no hope of survival after a 6-0 drubbing on Boxing Day against Macclesfield. We were dreadful and that was our second 6-0 defeat that season. Chris Turner got sacked and Jim Gannon came in for his first spell as manager, keeping us up on the last day of the season. I hope you stay up. I like seeing Sutton United as a league club. Interesting - I've worked out how we got different results, and I think it's an interesting case in psychological viewpoint. I'm guessing you looked to see if there were 2 or more teams with fewer points than Sutton accrued (2008/09 being the example you've shown). I went in a different direction, with my current massive pessimism, and looked to see if we've accrued fewer points than 22nd (and thus safety), which gave me relegation in every year (plus I also excluded 2019/20 due to the mess of working out that year).
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Post by banjo on Dec 17, 2023 11:03:11 GMT
Just seen the highlights and like others have said the defending was absolutely a shambles. No one closing down in midfield, just letting them run through us and the defence just backing off and no marking, this has been happening all season and nothing seems to have changed. Basically some of the players are not good enough or just cannot be bothered, I go with the latter . As I have said before Matt has to take the blame for this because this has been going on like others have said since before April yes Matt has done great things with this club but after four and a half years it seems to have got style, that is why not many managers last four years. So now might be the right time for a change of manager like I said before in the dugout a new voice, do say it with a heavy hart but all good things must come to an end.⚽️⚽️⚽️
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Post by Del on Dec 17, 2023 11:30:51 GMT
We need a commanding centre back because at present we don't seem to have one at the club or if we do he isn't fit most of the time.
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Post by Andy K on Dec 17, 2023 11:34:16 GMT
An appalling result. An appalling performance. I don't think anyone can be in doubt of that.
But in all honesty that result could have easily happened earlier in the season, noteably at Accrington or Doncaster, if they were better. The caveat for yesterday was that without injuries our back 4 would have been totally different, as would the centre of midfield. But then players have to come in and do a job. Stockport had 18 shots, with 11 of them on target. And I believe that was their biggest league win in 90 years.
For me, yesterday, I knew we were in for a spanking after the first goal. Aside from the comedy of errors that led to it (stupid freekick togive away, awful marking etc), but the reaction afterwards. Bouzanis went postal and Harry Smith was arguing with Matt at the touchline before we kicked off for the 2nd half.
What I don't understand is the fact that Matt has often cited how he says how important training is, and he had 2 weeks to train hard, and I've heard that he was really hands on during that 2 weeks. And this was the result.
If we had a match like at Wrexham, that would have been fine. But the combination of the total capitulation and how obvious it was that Challinor had done his homework a lot better that Matt did is really worrying.
I'm a little confused about his "Home grown" comment in his interview (which really I think Matt should have taken more responsibility for the result) which according to rule 33.8 "Teams must name a minimum of 7 home grown players in a matchday squad". According to the EFL squad list published, we named 11 home grown players in the squad yesterday, not including Louis John. So if I've got that wrong, someone please correct me, but if I have not, then it's even more worrying that it seems like we don't know what the rules are.
I've always said that if we finish 22nd in the league it would be a huge achievement for this club, bearing in mind our size and stature. But it does feel like the progress and hard work over the last 2 months have come undone in the worst possible way.
The Mansfield game is vital. Aside from the result, it's going to be the biggest indication of strength of character. We've hit rock bottom, and it won't get worse than this. If this result isn't the thing that bucks our ideas up, both on and off the pitch, then nothing will.
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Post by boomboom on Dec 17, 2023 11:37:24 GMT
Out of interest, I've just checked the relegation odds and you can get 1.66 (4/6) which equates to a 60% chance of us going down, ie 40% probability survival. That seems rather optimistic but I'd never bet against us.
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