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Post by newfmkr on Sept 2, 2024 12:55:32 GMT
If Womens teams sign biological males, there will not be any biological females who can compete. I am all for inclusion but logic has to play a part somewhere surely? I'm sorry OS, I am struggling to see how this makes any sense whatsoever. So first off you're saying cis women are all so much worse at football than trans women simply because the latter are born with (on average) larger/stronger bodies, that there's no hope of the former ever getting into a team. You do a huge disservice to women's football there. Have you any idea how many trans women are out there compared with cis women, because what you seem to be saying is that the tiny handful of trans women out there must ALL be better footballers than the thousands of cis women who are playing around the country. Otherwise there simply wouldn't be enough trans people to keep them out. And where are the trans footballers at the very top levels, OS? Because I don't see any. Anyone? If people actually troubled to listen to what trans people say rather than painting them as the baddies who are ruining women's sports, then they would learn very quickly that most trans women who have transitioned to the point where they're seeking to play for a women's team will be on hormone therapy as part of their transition. And those trans women will also be able to tell you that this gives them LOWER testosterone levels than the natural baseline of the average cis women. In simpler terms, the physical advantage you think trans women have over cis women does not exist. They are, if anything, at a DISADVANTAGE. Which might help answer my question at the end of the previous paragraph. When it suits certain people (and I've stopped talking about you now OS), they'll go on about how men's football and women's football are profoundly different games and that's why it's OK to talk disparagingly about women's football or imply female pundits/commentators shouldn't be involved in the men's game. Logic surely dictates that if the women's game is different from the men's then that's because they play to a style better suited to women's bodies. Wouldn't this also put trans women at a disadvantage? Isn't it funny that a lot of the same people are those shouting loudest about how the inclusion of trans women in women's teams is unfair to cis women. Almost as if their concerns lie with excluding people they don't like rather than for the welfare/rights of the women they've never troubled to listen to before. This article is a deliberately misleading attempt to discredit trans people who are simply trying to live their lives. Lucy absolutely did not say - as is implied here - that she's trying to build an all-trans team at Sutton. If she ever said that at all, it was several years ago and she was talking about a team that was specifically FOR trans women. It's only included here to provoke unnecessary outrage against people who just want to be treated with the same level of basic respect as everyone else. what of the women who do, for whatever reason feel uncomfortable? If the article is completely made up, as a couple of people have said, then good, I'm guessing nobody else in the team has a problem with the situation, but there's plenty of women out there , who feel like their hard earned rights and privileges are being eroded. Do they just need to educate themselves? |
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kpinwp
1st team Player
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Post by kpinwp on Sept 2, 2024 13:21:34 GMT
There's a near boundless opportunity, here, for us to all adopt entrenched positions / lecture each other. But let's not do it?
One way or the other the article means us no good. If it divides us up then it's succeeding in one of its purposes.
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Post by newfmkr on Sept 2, 2024 13:27:22 GMT
There's a near boundless opportunity, here, for us to all adopt entrenched positions / lecture each other. But let's not do it? One way or the other the article means us no good. If it divides us up then it's succeeding in one of its purposes. but this is exactly it. Some people seem to think it's impossible to have any nuance with this. IMHO , it's perfectly reasonable to think anybody should be allowed to live exactly as they please, but also understand and even perhaps share the concerns of women and girls in my family that are troubled by certain elements of the trans issue. I take My lead from them. If you make what is considered "right thinking "such a small boundary area, almost everybody becomes a bigot, and there's zero discussion |
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Post by paz on Sept 2, 2024 13:50:59 GMT
20000 clubs 2.5 million girls/women playing football 72 Trans Women (a figure quoted by a gender critical person) I do not think it is that high. so yes there is plenty of teams for everyone. Of course there is not thousands of trans players playing in womens football at this time, as up till now it was not really a consideration, for good reason. The concerns some may have today are obviously not the numbers currently competing, but the fact that thousands may well start competing. I believe Lucy has been quoted on social media celebrating the idea that one day the whole team will be trans. This would of course be a whole team with not one biological female there, surely this is an erosion of womens rights in their own game? If trans people want to play, I say set up an LGTB league and I would get behind that. It would also mean its free of controversy and the playing field not called into question all the time, which cant be good for them to have to listen to all the time. Perhaps Training with the ladies is not such an issue and may even help the ladies along, but not beyond that IMO. As for the argument that trans women do not potentially have a physical advantage over Biological Women? IMO it is a ludicrous argument. Across the board men have an advantage over women in sports, which is why we don't see a heavy weight boxer fight a woman for a world tital. Even if a biological male transition's and uses steroids and so fourth, they have still had an advantage with the development of their body over many years. Playing sports where strength and conditioning is such a motivation, how can it be the case that someone would be not be trying gain as much advantage as they can? Sorry, while I think the LGTB movement has done some great things for inclusivity and has my support, I think there are lines. I am not behind trans athletes competing against biological women. Personally, I will not be rushing along to watch. |
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Post by ADMIN on Sept 2, 2024 13:52:26 GMT
For clarification on the comment made that is being quoted.
An article went out in March 2022 about TRUK United FC on Southwark News regarding an upcoming match. The picture showed a TRUK United team which included Trans, Non Binary and Cisgender players. (Cisgender is a term used for people who are happy with the gender assigned at birth and is only really used when trans people are involved in the conversation) People started calling the team out for having cisgender players in a trans team. I said that TRUK will have a team full of Trans Women at some point (This happened in May 2022)
The comment had nothing to do with Sutton United and if this was the case why would I have signed 15 Cisgender women this season!
Also for the record as I need to make this statement due to the media lies.
The girls have been nothing but supportive and the match being P-P yesterday had nothing to do with any of the girls not wanting to play.
To add
TRUK United play in an LGBT league.
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Post by sallycat on Sept 2, 2024 14:47:45 GMT
I'm sorry OS, I am struggling to see how this makes any sense whatsoever. So first off you're saying cis women are all so much worse at football than trans women simply because the latter are born with (on average) larger/stronger bodies, that there's no hope of the former ever getting into a team. You do a huge disservice to women's football there. Have you any idea how many trans women are out there compared with cis women, because what you seem to be saying is that the tiny handful of trans women out there must ALL be better footballers than the thousands of cis women who are playing around the country. Otherwise there simply wouldn't be enough trans people to keep them out. And where are the trans footballers at the very top levels, OS? Because I don't see any. Anyone? If people actually troubled to listen to what trans people say rather than painting them as the baddies who are ruining women's sports, then they would learn very quickly that most trans women who have transitioned to the point where they're seeking to play for a women's team will be on hormone therapy as part of their transition. And those trans women will also be able to tell you that this gives them LOWER testosterone levels than the natural baseline of the average cis women. In simpler terms, the physical advantage you think trans women have over cis women does not exist. They are, if anything, at a DISADVANTAGE. Which might help answer my question at the end of the previous paragraph. When it suits certain people (and I've stopped talking about you now OS), they'll go on about how men's football and women's football are profoundly different games and that's why it's OK to talk disparagingly about women's football or imply female pundits/commentators shouldn't be involved in the men's game. Logic surely dictates that if the women's game is different from the men's then that's because they play to a style better suited to women's bodies. Wouldn't this also put trans women at a disadvantage? Isn't it funny that a lot of the same people are those shouting loudest about how the inclusion of trans women in women's teams is unfair to cis women. Almost as if their concerns lie with excluding people they don't like rather than for the welfare/rights of the women they've never troubled to listen to before. This article is a deliberately misleading attempt to discredit trans people who are simply trying to live their lives. Lucy absolutely did not say - as is implied here - that she's trying to build an all-trans team at Sutton. If she ever said that at all, it was several years ago and she was talking about a team that was specifically FOR trans women. It's only included here to provoke unnecessary outrage against people who just want to be treated with the same level of basic respect as everyone else. what of the women who do, for whatever reason feel uncomfortable? If the article is completely made up, as a couple of people have said, then good, I'm guessing nobody else in the team has a problem with the situation, but there's plenty of women out there , who feel like their hard earned rights and privileges are being eroded. Do they just need to educate themselves? Yes. Yes, they do. People in the past said exactly this about gay people and those from minority ethnic backgrounds. "I've got nothing against them, I'm just UNCOMFORTABLE with xyz" "I don't have a problem with them as people, but they're taking the jobs we have a right to." If you're uncomfortable around people who are different from you for whatever reason, then you absolutely do need to examine the reason why that is. As for women's rights in a more general sense, yes we have fought long and hard for those so why should we turn our backs on those who are facing similar discrimination? Trans women face sexism just as cis women do but also have to bear the brunt of transphobia, which often puts them in physical danger. I'm a woman. I'm far less comfortable around people who think trans women shouldn't be allowed to do ordinary women's things than I am around trans women themselves. |
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Post by newfmkr on Sept 2, 2024 15:21:24 GMT
what of the women who do, for whatever reason feel uncomfortable? If the article is completely made up, as a couple of people have said, then good, I'm guessing nobody else in the team has a problem with the situation, but there's plenty of women out there , who feel like their hard earned rights and privileges are being eroded. Do they just need to educate themselves? Yes. Yes, they do. People in the past said exactly this about gay people and those from minority ethnic backgrounds. "I've got nothing against them, I'm just UNCOMFORTABLE with xyz" "I don't have a problem with them as people, but they're taking the jobs we have a right to." If you're uncomfortable around people who are different from you for whatever reason, then you absolutely do need to examine the reason why that is. As for women's rights in a more general sense, yes we have fought long and hard for those so why should we turn our backs on those who are facing similar discrimination? Trans women face sexism just as cis women do but also have to bear the brunt of transphobia, which often puts them in physical danger. I'm a woman. I'm far less comfortable around people who think trans women shouldn't be allowed to do ordinary women's things than I am around trans women themselves. and there we have it. Women who express opinions and worries are just plain wrong, and should be equated with racists. All this is the name of progress. It's clearly not the same at all, and personally I wouldn't be telling women they should just shut up and read more. If my daughters say , on certain occasion that they feel uncomfortable, I'm going to believe them. |
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,249
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Post by kpinwp on Sept 2, 2024 15:29:46 GMT
There's a near boundless opportunity, here, for us to all adopt entrenched positions / lecture each other. But let's not do it? One way or the other the article means us no good. If it divides us up then it's succeeding in one of its purposes. but this is exactly it. Some people seem to think it's impossible to have any nuance with this. IMHO , it's perfectly reasonable to think anybody should be allowed to live exactly as they please, but also understand and even perhaps share the concerns of women and girls in my family that are troubled by certain elements of the trans issue. I take My lead from them. If you make what is considered "right thinking "such a small boundary area, almost everybody becomes a bigot, and there's zero discussion Yes, I have some sympathy with this, if by 'certain elements' you mean a possible incursion into biological womens' rights or safety zones (although those do constitute a relatively limited area). And I would also say that telling people that they need to educate themselves is possibly the worst possible way to get them to actually reconsider any position. But the main point is that the newspaper story is substantially bollox. |
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Post by sallycat on Sept 2, 2024 16:12:11 GMT
Yes. Yes, they do. People in the past said exactly this about gay people and those from minority ethnic backgrounds. "I've got nothing against them, I'm just UNCOMFORTABLE with xyz" "I don't have a problem with them as people, but they're taking the jobs we have a right to." If you're uncomfortable around people who are different from you for whatever reason, then you absolutely do need to examine the reason why that is. As for women's rights in a more general sense, yes we have fought long and hard for those so why should we turn our backs on those who are facing similar discrimination? Trans women face sexism just as cis women do but also have to bear the brunt of transphobia, which often puts them in physical danger. I'm a woman. I'm far less comfortable around people who think trans women shouldn't be allowed to do ordinary women's things than I am around trans women themselves. and there we have it. Women who express opinions and worries are just plain wrong, and should be equated with racists. All this is the name of progress. It's clearly not the same at all, and personally I wouldn't be telling women they should just shut up and read more. If my daughters say , on certain occasion that they feel uncomfortable, I'm going to believe them. You have generalised this to "women who express opinions and worries" which is so far from what I'm actually saying that it's become very clear you're just reading what you want to read regardless of what is actually being said. Yes, transphobes should be equated with racists. Is that the same as saying "women who express opinions and worries are just plain wrong"? No, of course it isn't. That's just disingenuous and you know it is. If your "opinions and worries" are by their nature discriminatory, then the onus is on you to figure out exactly what you're worried about when it comes to sharing space with people from a different demographic group. If your opinions and worries aren't about that, then we are not talking about that. The valid concerns of women should always be listened to, just as any other group who experiences discrimination. That includes trans people. I too have daughters. And if they tell me they're uncomfortable I always take them very seriously. I've ended friendships over my daughters' discomfort, something I wouldn't do lightly. And if my daughters tell me they're uncomfortable, then I would say my role as a parent is to listen to them about exactly why they are uncomfortable, validate their feelings (feelings are always valid, even if they might change once the person understands the situation better) and if necessary either educate them about it or take appropriate action to keep them safe. |
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Post by davethegrave on Sept 2, 2024 16:23:17 GMT
I have every sympathy with anyone who is trans but it is totally unfair having them play against women as they would have an unfair advantage. Let them play in men's games. I think if this is true that our coach is totally ridiculous to say trans players can compete against women. I know she is but that is not the problem.
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Post by newfmkr on Sept 2, 2024 16:36:54 GMT
and there we have it. Women who express opinions and worries are just plain wrong, and should be equated with racists. All this is the name of progress. It's clearly not the same at all, and personally I wouldn't be telling women they should just shut up and read more. If my daughters say , on certain occasion that they feel uncomfortable, I'm going to believe them. You have generalised this to "women who express opinions and worries" which is so far from what I'm actually saying that it's become very clear you're just reading what you want to read regardless of what is actually being said. Yes, transphobes should be equated with racists. Is that the same as saying "women who express opinions and worries are just plain wrong"? No, of course it isn't. That's just disingenuous and you know it is. If your "opinions and worries" are by their nature discriminatory, then the onus is on you to figure out exactly what you're worried about when it comes to sharing space with people from a different demographic group. If your opinions and worries aren't about that, then we are not talking about that. The valid concerns of women should always be listened to, just as any other group who experiences discrimination. That includes trans people. I too have daughters. And if they tell me they're uncomfortable I always take them very seriously. I've ended friendships over my daughters' discomfort, something I wouldn't do lightly. And if my daughters tell me they're uncomfortable, then I would say my role as a parent is to listen to them about exactly why they are uncomfortable, validate their feelings (feelings are always valid, even if they might change once the person understands the situation better) and if necessary either educate them about it or take appropriate action to keep them safe. anyone who doesn't have the correct amount of right on credentials is a transphobe. Unbelievable that women and being told spaces, areas, anything that they have fought and earned should now open to anybody declaring themselves to be a women , and you and others label them bigots for questioning that. Exactly as I said earlier, make the boundaries so tiny everybody becomes a bigot and there's no discussion allowed. |
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Post by sallycat on Sept 2, 2024 17:26:21 GMT
I have every sympathy with anyone who is trans but it is totally unfair having them play against women as they would have an unfair advantage. Let them play in men's games. I think if this is true that our coach is totally ridiculous to say trans players can compete against women. I know she is but that is not the problem. Do you have a source for that claim about unfairness? I don't mean "I read it on Facebook" or "I think," I mean an actual scientific source. Like the ones quoted in this article: www.outsideonline.com/health/training-performance/research-trans-women-athletes-athletic-advantage/ Also, you do know trans men exist too, right? |
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Post by davethegrave on Sept 2, 2024 17:45:40 GMT
Yes of course I know that trans men exist too. It's a known fact that those born male have more testosterone and are physically stronger. I know occasionally CIS women could be as strong but that is generally the exception.
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Post by paz on Sept 2, 2024 17:53:43 GMT
what of the women who do, for whatever reason feel uncomfortable? If the article is completely made up, as a couple of people have said, then good, I'm guessing nobody else in the team has a problem with the situation, but there's plenty of women out there , who feel like their hard earned rights and privileges are being eroded. Do they just need to educate themselves? Yes. Yes, they do. People in the past said exactly this about gay people and those from minority ethnic backgrounds. "I've got nothing against them, I'm just UNCOMFORTABLE with xyz" "I don't have a problem with them as people, but they're taking the jobs we have a right to." If you're uncomfortable around people who are different from you for whatever reason, then you absolutely do need to examine the reason why that is. As for women's rights in a more general sense, yes we have fought long and hard for those so why should we turn our backs on those who are facing similar discrimination? Trans women face sexism just as cis women do but also have to bear the brunt of transphobia, which often puts them in physical danger. I'm a woman. I'm far less comfortable around people who think trans women shouldn't be allowed to do ordinary women's things than I am around trans women themselves. This is not an issue about sexually so I dont see your point about homosexually in the passed as relevant, and certainly not the point on ethnicity. Neither have any significant physical advantages to others. This is about phisicality. Professional competitive sports have very fine margins of competitiveness. This is why drugs are not allowed. A trans women potentially has a much greater physical advantage over a biological woman. This is an undeniable fact. This should not be a political discussion, it should be a sporting and scientific one. Go ahead and tell us why a trans woman cant compete in the mens game? |
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Post by sallycat on Sept 2, 2024 18:08:14 GMT
Yes. Yes, they do. People in the past said exactly this about gay people and those from minority ethnic backgrounds. "I've got nothing against them, I'm just UNCOMFORTABLE with xyz" "I don't have a problem with them as people, but they're taking the jobs we have a right to." If you're uncomfortable around people who are different from you for whatever reason, then you absolutely do need to examine the reason why that is. As for women's rights in a more general sense, yes we have fought long and hard for those so why should we turn our backs on those who are facing similar discrimination? Trans women face sexism just as cis women do but also have to bear the brunt of transphobia, which often puts them in physical danger. I'm a woman. I'm far less comfortable around people who think trans women shouldn't be allowed to do ordinary women's things than I am around trans women themselves. This is not an issue about sexually so I dont see your point about homosexually in the passed as relevant, and certainly not the point on ethnicity. Neither have any significant physical advantages to others. This is about phisicality. Professional competitive sports have very fine margins of competitiveness. This is why drugs are not allowed. A trans women potentially has a much greater physical advantage over a biological woman. This is an undeniable fact. This should not be a political discussion, it should be a sporting and scientific one. Go ahead and tell us why a trans woman cant compete in the mens game? This is not, as you say, an issue about sexuality. So why are you bringing it up? My comparison with other forms of discrimination was just that. This is an issue of discrimination. You made the point that performance-enhancing drugs aren't allowed - including testosterone supplements which would put athletes at an advantage. This is a good illustration of the point I made in a previous post: trans women on hormone therapy have LOWER testosterone levels than other women. There's also the point made in the article I quoted: trans women have reduced T levels AND reduced muscle mass as a result of transitioning, but still have to carry the same heavy frame around, which makes it harder for them to compete in sports. The claim of trans women's supposed advantage over cis women is far from "undeniable fact" when if you actually look at the evidence it seems to suggest the opposite. I wholeheartedly agree that this shouldn't be a political discussion and wouldn't dream of bringing politics into it, so I'm not sure why that comment has crept in. I shall go ahead and tell you why a trans woman shouldn't compete in the men's game. Because A TRANS WOMAN IS NOT A MAN. Her body is different from men's bodies if she has been using HRT. She does not have the same testosterone levels and muscle mass as them. I'm not even going to go into how cruel it would be to make trans women compete as men because I have the distinct feeling you're not as worried about their wellbeing as you are about cis people feeling threatened that someone might be better at sports than them. |
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