kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,249
|
Post by kpinwp on Sept 3, 2024 12:56:05 GMT
It was dismissed. She didn't compete in that competition because of it, but there have since been questions raised over the validity of said test, which have never been satisfactorily answered. Of course, you're going to think that if you listen to Emma Hilton, an established transphobe who belongs to a number of anti-trans groups such as "Sex Matters." Maybe the result was bogus? we were not given the chance to conclude it was. You don't get to win an appeal by just ignoring the result and attacking the person who did it. This is the point I am making. These things need to be monitored closely and with less discrepancy or mystery. Would it be great if Imane did a public test, proved the previous one to be bogus and stuck two fingers up and doubters? Surely this would be great PR for the Trans sports cause? But its not happened. On the flip side, if the test was proved to be legit, then being in the ring with women is dangerous for those women. Obviously, this is an issue what whatever side of the fence you are on, so its in the Trans or intersex athlete's interests to be as transparent as possible and convince their doubters wrong. With Regards to Doctor Hilton and her research. Everyone has an agenda and a political preference, including scientists and doctors who provide you with Data. Everyone has a right to that view without being character assassinated. Attack their data with counter data by all means, but I have no interest in political labels designed to intimidate people from speaking out against other ideas. I am more than happy to listen to other Doctors and then take it all in and conclude my own views. Following on from Paz's last paragraph. I don't have a great deal of time for Dr. Hilton, myself. However, the label 'transphobic' is sometimes deployed by those unwilling to tolerate the existence of views regarding the extent of trans rights that are different from their own. It's worth remembering that, for example, gender critical feminism is largely (depending upon its particular manifestation) a legally protected view. As upheld by several recent, high profile, court cases. One may not agree with that. But this is a pluralistic society. In order for such a society to work we have to accept that some people will have views different to our own, possibly even ones that we find obnoxious, but they are permitted to hold those views. Pesonnally I think this discussion, despite including multiple view points upon a delicately balanced matter, has been conducted thoughtfully and with good intentions. That's worth a lot. |
|
|
|
Post by ADMIN on Sept 3, 2024 13:07:40 GMT
Just to add as someone who is living this so knows first hand this is something I of course talk about when I go into organisations to do talks.
I use an example of Golf a sport I also enjoy. 15 years ago I could hit a drive 250+ yards on average quite comfortably. Now 15 years on my average drive is about 170. Technology has got better as has my golf so I really should be hitting the ball further. The loss of strength and power from HRT is massive. Estrogen turns muscle into fat and redistributes it to the correct areas, it also has lots of other effects none of which would give any advantage when it comes to sport and infact takes away any advantage by a massive amount.
Trans women have less testosterone that pretty much every Cisgender woman The normal range for women is 0.5–2.4 nanomoles per liter. For reference my latest test result was 0.6
Some stats
72 Trans women are registered to play football in the UK out of 2.5 million players that are registered. The majority play at a lower level.
Of the few that play at our level the highest a player has played is Tier 3. A trans player played in the FA Cup 4th round last year live on the BBC. They are stealth so there was not a big fuss made of this.
TRUK United have fielded an all trans female team on 2 occasions against an all cis female team. TRUK lost 7-0 (Blair actually played in goal for this game) and 1-0
A statement will be made soon.
|
|
|
|
Post by opus2024 on Sept 3, 2024 13:27:15 GMT
What is soon? Later today? Tomorrow before lunch? An hour before the next scheduled fixture? Before the end of of September ? After the next Budget?
|
|
billy
1st team skipper
Posts: 2,650
|
Post by billy on Sept 3, 2024 15:22:00 GMT
A statement will be made soon.
ADMIN
Would you care to make a statement about the stroke you pulled yesterday? You quoted os then altered the words.Someone called it "bad tactics" i'd call it a lot worse than that.
Can we expect this to be a one off? Or do Moderators/ADMIN now have the authority to quote people then alter their words?
Thanks
Bill
|
|
kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,249
|
Post by kpinwp on Sept 3, 2024 15:38:09 GMT
To be fair to Admin, that quote alteration has long since been deleted and, when posted, it was clearly signaled as a re-interpretation of OS's original sentance. Still not what should be done, but as the one who made the original objection I should say that I received a PM apology and explanation from Admin. Personally, I am quite content with that. These can be emotional matters.
|
|
|
|
Post by paz on Sept 3, 2024 15:52:53 GMT
Maybe the result was bogus? we were not given the chance to conclude it was. You don't get to win an appeal by just ignoring the result and attacking the person who did it. This is the point I am making. These things need to be monitored closely and with less discrepancy or mystery. Would it be great if Imane did a public test, proved the previous one to be bogus and stuck two fingers up and doubters? Surely this would be great PR for the Trans sports cause? But its not happened. On the flip side, if the test was proved to be legit, then being in the ring with women is dangerous for those women. Obviously, this is an issue what whatever side of the fence you are on, so its in the Trans or intersex athlete's interests to be as transparent as possible and convince their doubters wrong. With Regards to Doctor Hilton and her research. Everyone has an agenda and a political preference, including scientists and doctors who provide you with Data. Everyone has a right to that view without being character assassinated. Attack their data with counter data by all means, but I have no interest in political labels designed to intimidate people from speaking out against other ideas. I am more than happy to listen to other Doctors and then take it all in and conclude my own views. That's the thing though, it's not for the public to make these decisions, it's for sport governing bodies. Why should people be made to make their medical information public - if that governing body publishes their eligibility criteria then that should be good enough. And our goalkeeper has been cleared to play women's football, and has done so for several different teams for some time. It's only now she's moved to a team that happens to have a trans manager that the media decide it's an issue. The thing about people like Dr Hilton is that they're going to present data in a very skewed and biased way because she literally has an agenda to prevent trans women from joining women's events. There are also people who would ignore any evidence suggesting it wasn't safe, because they too have already made up their minds in the opposite direction without considering the evidence. Neither of these are reliable sources. I've taken mine from scientific journals where authors are required to disclose their interests and you can also see who is finding the research and why. I'm afraid I don't base my opinions on the content of YouTube videos. Ok, But she did not become a Doctor on Youtube. I am not saying they have to make medical information public, that would indeed be an invasion of their privacy which I am very much against. I am talking about just having the regulation in place for being gender tested in given sports, or any other tests which could ensure fairness and safety for the trans athletes and their opponents. It would be between them and the sporting bodies to make sure they qualify for a particular category. It will not need to be public, just like drug testing is not public unless someone fails. But should not be concluded simply by a passport. I fully agree with you that it's for governing bodies to deal with. But currently, no such thing is really in place. As for Dr Hilton, like I say, you can dislike her as that is your right, but I would only really comment on data you present that counters her own, as I find her knowledge can be very reasonable and interesting, though I would never expect everyone to always be right, as we all learn, such is life. I tell you what. If Khelifn takes a test which is accepted as genuine by the professional boxing authorities and proves to be a biological female (female at birth without any complications of having split chromosomes), I will come here and bow to your knowledge and apologize. I give you my word. |
|
|
|
Post by ADMIN on Sept 3, 2024 15:58:36 GMT
A statement will be made soon. ADMIN Would you care to make a statement about the stroke you pulled yesterday? You quoted os then altered the words.Someone called it "bad tactics" i'd call it a lot worse than that. Can we expect this to be a one off? Or do Moderators/ADMIN now have the authority to quote people then alter their words? Thanks Bill With respect Billy the original post was not altered. This was done on MY post. I have seen many posts corrected by people in their replies and this was what I did. Unlike many others I swiftly deleted it tho as it was pointed out and I agreed it was probably wrong to correct the comment the way I did and to save arguments I left it at that. Mods and Admin have the power to do what they see fit and as the person who set this forum up 17 years ago I do not think I have done we have done a bad job. In that time not a single post has had the OP's words altered on their post. |
|
|
|
Post by suttonpodcast on Sept 3, 2024 15:59:41 GMT
Whichever view you hold, the current rules & laws state that Blair is free to play for us.
Many people forget there is an actual person involved.
Those who object should not target individual sports people or clubs but the decision/ law makers.
None directed at anyone in particular on here.
The statement is not going to be from Lucy, I would guess there are legal & safe guarding issues to consider.
|
|
|
|
Post by sallycat on Sept 3, 2024 17:45:19 GMT
Paz, thank you for the civilised debate. I think we've probably said enough now. I'm just going to point out that it isn't that I dislike Dr Hilton - my issue is that she is coming at the whole issue from a fundamentally biased position and as such I don't trust the way she is likely to present research. It will be cherry picked and not necessarily good quality research as long as it says what she wants it to say and she'll ignore anything that doesn't.
I'm not coming from a position biased towards trans people. I came from a position of knowing nothing, educated myself and came to the conclusions I've presented. Perhaps doing the same has brought you to different conclusions.
|
|
|
|
Post by newfmkr on Sept 3, 2024 17:55:26 GMT
Whichever view you hold, the current rules & laws state that Blair is free to play for us. Many people forget there is an actual person involved. Those who object should not target individual sports people or clubs but the decision/ law makers. None directed at anyone in particular on here. The statement is not going to be from Lucy, I would guess there are legal & safe guarding issues to consider. just because you can, doesn't always mean you should. You can try and tell me there's zero physical advantage after transition, but you're asking me to disbelieve what I can see. I'm seeing athletes that are faster taller, stronger, and I'm being told I'm mad/stupid/bigoted for believing what I see. The trans women I see competing at a decent level of sport I'm guessing wouldn't be anywhere near that level in the men's game most of the time? So yes, it does bother me that girls and women are being asked to accept something than many people see as unfair. I cant imagine the torture it must be to believe you're a different sex for years, than have to battle for even more years to get the treatment you need. At the same time, women couldn't even play football up to fairly recently, just let them have it. Guess there isn't a solution that will suit everyone |
|
|
|
Post by suttonpodcast on Sept 3, 2024 18:33:54 GMT
Whichever view you hold, the current rules & laws state that Blair is free to play for us. Many people forget there is an actual person involved. Those who object should not target individual sports people or clubs but the decision/ law makers. None directed at anyone in particular on here. The statement is not going to be from Lucy, I would guess there are legal & safe guarding issues to consider. just because you can, doesn't always mean you should. You can try and tell me there's zero physical advantage after transition, but you're asking me to disbelieve what I can see. I'm seeing athletes that are faster taller, stronger, and I'm being told I'm mad/stupid/bigoted for believing what I see. The trans women I see competing at a decent level of sport I'm guessing wouldn't be anywhere near that level in the men's game most of the time? So yes, it does bother me that girls and women are being asked to accept something than many people see as unfair. I cant imagine the torture it must be to believe you're a different sex for years, than have to battle for even more years to get the treatment you need. At the same time, women couldn't even play football up to fairly recently, just let them have it. Guess there isn't a solution that will suit everyone Assuming you have quoted the wrong post, because I have not asked you to change you view. Just pointed out that real people are involved & the individual sports person/organisations should not be a target of anyone's ire but direct it at the decision makers. |
|
|
|
Post by newfmkr on Sept 3, 2024 19:00:04 GMT
just because you can, doesn't always mean you should. You can try and tell me there's zero physical advantage after transition, but you're asking me to disbelieve what I can see. I'm seeing athletes that are faster taller, stronger, and I'm being told I'm mad/stupid/bigoted for believing what I see. The trans women I see competing at a decent level of sport I'm guessing wouldn't be anywhere near that level in the men's game most of the time? So yes, it does bother me that girls and women are being asked to accept something than many people see as unfair. I cant imagine the torture it must be to believe you're a different sex for years, than have to battle for even more years to get the treatment you need. At the same time, women couldn't even play football up to fairly recently, just let them have it. Guess there isn't a solution that will suit everyone Assuming you have quoted the wrong post, because I have not asked you to change you view. Just pointed out that real people are involved & the individual sports person/organisations should not be a target of anyone's ire but direct it at the decision makers. thanks for assuming but no, I knew what I was doing. My point is, the rule may say you can do 1 thing, but the club make decisions, and have to deal with whatever fallout there may be. Good or bad |
|
|
|
Post by suttonpodcast on Sept 3, 2024 20:19:41 GMT
Apologies I did not get that was point you were making. I suppose you mean like the Corinthians refusing to take penalties we should reject a player based on a perceived advantage, suspect there would be some discrimination laws we would need to worry about, but I think I understand.
However I am not trying to change anyone's opinions there is significant enough information out there for people to decide for themselves. Obviously it's an emotive subject and you need to sift through a lot misinformation (example the article that started this thread)
|
|
|
|
Post by sallycat on Sept 3, 2024 20:32:16 GMT
Whichever view you hold, the current rules & laws state that Blair is free to play for us. Many people forget there is an actual person involved. Those who object should not target individual sports people or clubs but the decision/ law makers. None directed at anyone in particular on here. The statement is not going to be from Lucy, I would guess there are legal & safe guarding issues to consider. just because you can, doesn't always mean you should. You can try and tell me there's zero physical advantage after transition, but you're asking me to disbelieve what I can see. I'm seeing athletes that are faster taller, stronger, and I'm being told I'm mad/stupid/bigoted for believing what I see. The trans women I see competing at a decent level of sport I'm guessing wouldn't be anywhere near that level in the men's game most of the time? So yes, it does bother me that girls and women are being asked to accept something than many people see as unfair. I cant imagine the torture it must be to believe you're a different sex for years, than have to battle for even more years to get the treatment you need. At the same time, women couldn't even play football up to fairly recently, just let them have it. Guess there isn't a solution that will suit everyone And if those girls and women do accept it (and all the female footballers I know/have heard from about this issue do) then can we please accept that they accept it and we have no reason to get outraged on their behalf? They are able to speak for themselves and it's what they want that matters here. |
|
|
|
Post by boomboom on Sept 3, 2024 20:43:16 GMT
Just to add as someone who is living this so knows first hand this is something I of course talk about when I go into organisations to do talks. I use an example of Golf a sport I also enjoy. 15 years ago I could hit a drive 250+ yards on average quite comfortably. Now 15 years on my average drive is about 170. Technology has got better as has my golf so I really should be hitting the ball further. The loss of strength and power from HRT is massive. Estrogen turns muscle into fat and redistributes it to the correct areas, it also has lots of other effects none of which would give any advantage when it comes to sport and infact takes away any advantage by a massive amount. Trans women have less testosterone that pretty much every Cisgender woman The normal range for women is 0.5–2.4 nanomoles per liter. For reference my latest test result was 0.6 Some stats 72 Trans women are registered to play football in the UK out of 2.5 million players that are registered. The majority play at a lower level. Of the few that play at our level the highest a player has played is Tier 3. A trans player played in the FA Cup 4th round last year live on the BBC. They are stealth so there was not a big fuss made of this. TRUK United have fielded an all trans female team on 2 occasions against an all cis female team. TRUK lost 7-0 (Blair actually played in goal for this game) and 1-0 A statement will be made soon. Just to be clear, because I had to look it up, that's 2.5 million women and girls, not all players, who are registered. So, 72 trans women represent just 0.002 per cent of that total or, in other words, one in 35,000. Based on that, the numbers affected, irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the issue, are negligible. In practical terms, therefore, it matters barely an iota that trans women are allowed to play in women's matches. |
|
