jr
1st team skipper
Posts: 2,195
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Post by jr on Sept 1, 2021 9:53:22 GMT
So you mean the boycott that has been happening for the last 5 seasons and hasn't affected the tournament one bit? Whilst you've made your anti-PL stance obvious, and I don't disagree with that at all, would you like to articulate why having an academy side in this competition has harmed it in any way? Would we have had more people at the ground last night playing a cat one academy side or say, Crawley? Are the academy sides romping home with the title every season? In the 5 years of these academy sides playing in the competition has there been any serious threat of them "taking" the place of league sides? Your argument is 5 years old. If the EFL can't even decide among them to have 3G surfaces, why the hell would they vote in these teams? Apart from the fact clubs are recording record low crowds it hasn’t affected it one bit. No idea what the attendance was last night (has it been announced?) but you’d say there is a unique element to it for us and perhaps as our fans have not experienced the tournament before we might be less upset about it. Carlisle, for example, have often struggled to put together 4 figure crowds. I’m not fussed about whether the young PL sides are romping to victory or being crushed, they shouldn’t be involved. These PL sides have shown they are totally selfish - look at European Super League too - there is a danger B teams or academy teams do get through to a first team league if the EFL do not stand firm to their cash inducements. It’s a real danger - it’s literally just been shown in Scotland. They voted them in to this tournament so it’s not beyond the realms of possibilities that they’d vote them into the league if the price is right. 1504 |
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amberchoc
1st team Player
Blessed is the person who having nothing to say abstains from giving us wordy evidence of the fact.
Posts: 1,501 
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Post by amberchoc on Sept 1, 2021 10:05:23 GMT
The rather muffled tannoy last night appeared to say that the crowd was 1504 with 430 of that being in the away end. As for B teams, I believe Dorking Wanderers Reserves play in step 6 of non-league (SCFL division 1) which is a first team league, just 4 levels below their step 2 (National League South) first team, so it is already happening. The arrangement is that the reserve team cannot win promotion to step 5 of non league, so even if they were champions, the second placed team would be treated as if they finished first for promotion purposes.That's impressive non-league knowledge from a supporter of a Premier League team. I doff my hat! |
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oohaah
Top Performer
Posts: 3,138
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Post by oohaah on Sept 1, 2021 10:10:14 GMT
The rather muffled tannoy last night appeared to say that the crowd was 1504 with 430 of that being in the away end. As for B teams, I believe Dorking Wanderers Reserves play in step 6 of non-league (SCFL division 1) which is a first team league, just 4 levels below their step 2 (National League South) first team, so it is already happening. The arrangement is that the reserve team cannot win promotion to step 5 of non league, so even if they were champions, the second placed team would be treated as if they finished first for promotion purposes. Eagle1974, we always welcome the views of opponents fans (apart from some of Torquay's). However may I say yours were particularly well put. Have a great season, and I hope that some of last night's talent end up making the grade for you. |
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markf
Top Performer
Posts: 3,317
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Post by markf on Sept 1, 2021 10:21:28 GMT
My only principle when it comes to SUFC is making sure I can get to wherever they are playing irrespective of the competition or the opposition. Everything else can go hang.
Didn't the Irn Bru Cup involve Scottish PL clubs u20 somethings? I don't recall too much opposition to those travelling to Airdrie or Dublin.
Anyway, 1500 in the ground with a great following from Palace considering the type of side they have to enter (well done to them) and a decent match too with both sides trying to play on a surface that looked and played a bit better following what appeared to be a shorter cut. Apparently, we will have to wait a little longer for the grass to thicken for it to be cut shorter. All played under bright sunlight (the floodlight upgrade is fantastic except it would seem for the corner that Ooohaah stands in). A bit dim apparently (sorry Kevin, only joking). Like our very own swashbuckler, KBB also remarked on how well he could see the far end and identify the players.
Three great finishes, the second two following some excellent build up play and the opportunity for those players who have missed out so far to get some valuable playing time and, in most cases, shine. The only downside was Jon B's injury. I hope he has ok because he has been brilliant so far keeping Joe K out of the side and as we saw last night, that is no mean feat.
Mr Rock had a decent game too. A shadow of his former self, he has lost 3 stone in weight (he told me), so well done to him for that.
All in all an enjoyable evening. But then it always is when you win.
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Post by sallycat on Sept 1, 2021 10:59:42 GMT
This thread is a really odd mixture of positivity and negativity! Great post there Frakey, and thanks to eagle1974 for some lovely comments about our club. I thoroughly enjoyed myself (other than the fact that the late August weather was BIZARRELY cold) and to be frank it was good just to see a competitive win at last, after being rather spoiled for those last season. All the goals were quality but the lead-up to the third was just something else! Amazing stuff! Even the tea from Rose's seemed to taste better than usual. Even though most of our regular XI weren't playing I hope we can get a little boost from this result and start chalking up a few league wins.
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,248
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Post by kpinwp on Sept 1, 2021 11:17:09 GMT
This thread is a really odd mixture of positivity and negativity! Great post there Frakey, and thanks to eagle1974 for some lovely comments about our club. I thoroughly enjoyed myself (other than the fact that the late August weather was BIZARRELY cold) and to be frank it was good just to see a competitive win at last, after being rather spoiled for those last season. All the goals were quality but the lead-up to the third was just something else! Amazing stuff! Even the tea from Rose's seemed to taste better than usual. Even though most of our regular XI weren't playing I hope we can get a little boost from this result and start chalking up a few league wins. I think it's more a question of nuance than negativity. Many of us simply have deep qualms about the compostion of teams in this competition. Which acts as a filter in our regard of it. Matters are not always binary. Consider the reaction of the fans of the 'Big 6' when the Super League was mooted. I believe some declared that they wouldn't follow that competition, because of its nature. Wheher they'd have gone through with that, who knows? I think Garethl has explained the 'anti' position very clearly. We don't expect everyone to agree with that position. But if people regard it as 'negativity' that they 'just don't get', then that is quite a simplistic response. |
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Post by Andy K on Sept 1, 2021 12:01:25 GMT
This thread is a really odd mixture of positivity and negativity! Great post there Frakey, and thanks to eagle1974 for some lovely comments about our club. I thoroughly enjoyed myself (other than the fact that the late August weather was BIZARRELY cold) and to be frank it was good just to see a competitive win at last, after being rather spoiled for those last season. All the goals were quality but the lead-up to the third was just something else! Amazing stuff! Even the tea from Rose's seemed to taste better than usual. Even though most of our regular XI weren't playing I hope we can get a little boost from this result and start chalking up a few league wins. I think it's more a question of nuance than negativity. Many of us simply have deep qualms about the compostion of teams in this competition. Which acts as a filter in our regard of it. Matters are not always binary. Consider the reaction of the fans of the 'Big 6' when the Super League was mooted. I believe some declared that they wouldn't follow that competition, because of its nature. Wheher they'd have gone through with that, who knows? I think Garethl has explained the 'anti' position very clearly. We don't expect everyone to agree with that position. But if people regard it as 'negativity' that they 'just don't get', then that is quite a simplistic response. Talking of a nuance which has been missed, a significant proportion of those Palace players (and other U21 squads in the competition) will end up playing at this level or National League level. Not that Sutton have any of those of course, except House, Bouzanis, Goodliffe, Eastmond, Ajiboye, Randall and Wilson to name a few. |
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,248
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Post by kpinwp on Sept 1, 2021 12:10:28 GMT
I think it's more a question of nuance than negativity. Many of us simply have deep qualms about the compostion of teams in this competition. Which acts as a filter in our regard of it. Matters are not always binary. Consider the reaction of the fans of the 'Big 6' when the Super League was mooted. I believe some declared that they wouldn't follow that competition, because of its nature. Wheher they'd have gone through with that, who knows? I think Garethl has explained the 'anti' position very clearly. We don't expect everyone to agree with that position. But if people regard it as 'negativity' that they 'just don't get', then that is quite a simplistic response. Talking of a nuance which has been missed, a significant proportion of those Palace players (and other U21 squads in the competition) will end up playing at this level or National League level. Not that Sutton have any of those of course, except House, Bouzanis, Goodliffe, Eastmond, Ajiboye, Randall and Wilson to name a few. Undoubtedly a useful by product of the competition, as was the run out for our squad and the win. But, we are saying that the principle of PL teams buying their way into the competition is wrong, and that it is a preceedent that will facilitate the presence of PL B teams in the lower leagues. So, ultimately not relevant to point that we are making. As I said, it's not a binary situation. We are not doubtling that some good comes to our club from this competition. But we contend that the wider, emerging, picture is not beneficial to us. |
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Post by sallycat on Sept 1, 2021 12:18:57 GMT
I meant negativity in the sense of being against something, rather than that of moaning which it looks like you interpreted it as. Honestly not seeing it that way, it's an interesting thread with good points on both sides. Negative comments aren't always a bad thing or something to be criticised. On the contrary, they are often needed.
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,248
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Post by kpinwp on Sept 1, 2021 12:24:29 GMT
I meant negativity in the sense of being against something, rather than that of moaning which it looks like you interpreted it as. Honestly not seeing it that way, it's an interesting thread with good points on both sides. Negative comments aren't always a bad thing or something to be criticised. On the contrary, they are often needed. Thanks, Sarah. Appreciated! |
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Post by Andy K on Sept 1, 2021 12:27:47 GMT
Talking of a nuance which has been missed, a significant proportion of those Palace players (and other U21 squads in the competition) will end up playing at this level or National League level. Not that Sutton have any of those of course, except House, Bouzanis, Goodliffe, Eastmond, Ajiboye, Randall and Wilson to name a few. Undoubtedly a useful by product of the competition, as was the run out for our squad and the win. But, we are saying that the principle of PL teams buying their way into the competition is wrong, and that it is a preceedent that will facilitate the presence of PL B teams in the lower leagues. So, ultimately not relevant to point that we are making. As I said, it's not a binary situation. We are not doubtling that some good comes to our club from this competition. But we contend that the wider, emerging, picture is not beneficial to us. But here is the misnomer. EFL clubs voted in 2015 to change the format, voted again in 2017 and 2019 to keep the format. There is a planned vote this season whether to keep the format the same. So far there have been 3 votes taken by EFL clubs to have U21 sides in, and each time they've voted in favour of it. Some changed their mind e.g. Grimsby voted for it in 2017 but not in 2019, but that's how the vote went. One can't really assume that the PL are "buying their way into the competition" at all, unless the inference is that FL chairmen are being bought off by PL sides. As has been noted previously on here, we as a L2 side benefitted a lot from being in the competition and who we played last night in a number of ways. If you were Bruce, would you vote against having that income and the opportunity to get fringe players much needed game time on the fear that was suggested in 2016 and still hasn't got any closer to manifesting itself and one which would again need a resolution and a vote from the teams within the EFL to action? |
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,248
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Post by kpinwp on Sept 1, 2021 13:10:47 GMT
Undoubtedly a useful by product of the competition, as was the run out for our squad and the win. But, we are saying that the principle of PL teams buying their way into the competition is wrong, and that it is a preceedent that will facilitate the presence of PL B teams in the lower leagues. So, ultimately not relevant to point that we are making. As I said, it's not a binary situation. We are not doubtling that some good comes to our club from this competition. But we contend that the wider, emerging, picture is not beneficial to us. But here is the misnomer. EFL clubs voted in 2015 to change the format, voted again in 2017 and 2019 to keep the format. There is a planned vote this season whether to keep the format the same. So far there have been 3 votes taken by EFL clubs to have U21 sides in, and each time they've voted in favour of it. Some changed their mind e.g. Grimsby voted for it in 2017 but not in 2019, but that's how the vote went. One can't really assume that the PL are "buying their way into the competition" at all, unless the inference is that FL chairmen are being bought off by PL sides. As has been noted previously on here, we as a L2 side benefitted a lot from being in the competition and who we played last night in a number of ways. If you were Bruce, would you vote against having that income and the opportunity to get fringe players much needed game time on the fear that was suggested in 2016 and still hasn't got any closer to manifesting itself and one which would again need a resolution and a vote from the teams within the EFL to action? But I would say that the points you are making are illustrative of the problem. Of course there are many strong incentives for us to take part in this competion, as it's been constructed, and I wouldn't for a moment suggest FL chairman are, literally, being bought off. Although I would say they are being 'tickled' into a position that may ultimately be less good for them. Bruce is clearly in a position where he can hardly off set the immediate, concrete, benefits that you mention against what is only a predictive argument. But I would say, for sure, that if a cup competition can be succesfully constructed inclusive of PL B teams then so can, and will, the lower leagues. The logic behind it would be indentical. It's just a matter of time. Now, it may be that many fans don't mind the idea of playing in a league partly composed of PL acadamy sides. There would be, after all, the same pluses that you've raised in connection with this cup. But, perhaps playing real teams might be more satisfying. Cripes, I don't usually get to argue for the traditionalist's point. It's quite refreshing! |
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Post by garethl on Sept 1, 2021 13:26:42 GMT
Undoubtedly a useful by product of the competition, as was the run out for our squad and the win. But, we are saying that the principle of PL teams buying their way into the competition is wrong, and that it is a preceedent that will facilitate the presence of PL B teams in the lower leagues. So, ultimately not relevant to point that we are making. As I said, it's not a binary situation. We are not doubtling that some good comes to our club from this competition. But we contend that the wider, emerging, picture is not beneficial to us. But here is the misnomer. EFL clubs voted in 2015 to change the format, voted again in 2017 and 2019 to keep the format. There is a planned vote this season whether to keep the format the same. So far there have been 3 votes taken by EFL clubs to have U21 sides in, and each time they've voted in favour of it. Some changed their mind e.g. Grimsby voted for it in 2017 but not in 2019, but that's how the vote went. One can't really assume that the PL are "buying their way into the competition" at all, unless the inference is that FL chairmen are being bought off by PL sides. As has been noted previously on here, we as a L2 side benefitted a lot from being in the competition and who we played last night in a number of ways. If you were Bruce, would you vote against having that income and the opportunity to get fringe players much needed game time on the fear that was suggested in 2016 and still hasn't got any closer to manifesting itself and one which would again need a resolution and a vote from the teams within the EFL to action? This is the point. The clubs are desperate for cash due to general financial mismanagement of the game. The PL can bung a bit of cash and the clubs will feel obliged to take the cash. Would the clubs be voted in without the cash? 100% no. The club could have played squad players in the comp pre academy teams! Yes, it has been 5 years but it can rear it’s head at any time whilst people get used to the format. I’ll say no more! |
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Post by Andy K on Sept 1, 2021 14:17:03 GMT
But here is the misnomer. EFL clubs voted in 2015 to change the format, voted again in 2017 and 2019 to keep the format. There is a planned vote this season whether to keep the format the same. So far there have been 3 votes taken by EFL clubs to have U21 sides in, and each time they've voted in favour of it. Some changed their mind e.g. Grimsby voted for it in 2017 but not in 2019, but that's how the vote went. One can't really assume that the PL are "buying their way into the competition" at all, unless the inference is that FL chairmen are being bought off by PL sides. As has been noted previously on here, we as a L2 side benefitted a lot from being in the competition and who we played last night in a number of ways. If you were Bruce, would you vote against having that income and the opportunity to get fringe players much needed game time on the fear that was suggested in 2016 and still hasn't got any closer to manifesting itself and one which would again need a resolution and a vote from the teams within the EFL to action? This is the point. The clubs are desperate for cash due to general financial mismanagement of the game. The PL can bung a bit of cash and the clubs will feel obliged to take the cash. Would the clubs be voted in without the cash? 100% no. The club could have played squad players in the comp pre academy teams! Yes, it has been 5 years but it can rear it’s head at any time whilst people get used to the format. I’ll say no more! I think you know this is nonsense. If you honestly think that having a premier league academy side playing 46 games in League Two will bring in lots of revenue for money hungry League Two clubs then you are mistaken. In 5 seasons, must U21 sides don't progress. The concerns in 2016 have not moved anywhere in 5 years, and if it was a genuine attempt to do this, there wouldn't be any need to have them playing in this competition. The incentive stated by you is money money money, and surely with the amount of money and clout the PL already have, they could have achieved this without any need for a EFL Trophy. It's not even a proof of concept. If you think that 5 years isn't enough time to get "used to the idea" then how long is? If you really want to make an issue about a problem that doesn't exist, or about the entry rules of a competition that was decided 5 years before we first took part in it, that's your choice. If the current format meant we got £10k prize money from last night, rather than £2k, then great. Markf perfectly encapsulated my thoughts on the subject and the match. We support our team and we go to as many games as we can. |
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Post by Andy K on Sept 1, 2021 14:23:57 GMT
But here is the misnomer. EFL clubs voted in 2015 to change the format, voted again in 2017 and 2019 to keep the format. There is a planned vote this season whether to keep the format the same. So far there have been 3 votes taken by EFL clubs to have U21 sides in, and each time they've voted in favour of it. Some changed their mind e.g. Grimsby voted for it in 2017 but not in 2019, but that's how the vote went. One can't really assume that the PL are "buying their way into the competition" at all, unless the inference is that FL chairmen are being bought off by PL sides. As has been noted previously on here, we as a L2 side benefitted a lot from being in the competition and who we played last night in a number of ways. If you were Bruce, would you vote against having that income and the opportunity to get fringe players much needed game time on the fear that was suggested in 2016 and still hasn't got any closer to manifesting itself and one which would again need a resolution and a vote from the teams within the EFL to action? But I would say that the points you are making are illustrative of the problem. Of course there are many strong incentives for us to take part in this competion, as it's been constructed, and I wouldn't for a moment suggest FL chairman are, literally, being bought off. Although I would say they are being 'tickled' into a position that may ultimately be less good for them. Bruce is clearly in a position where he can hardly off set the immediate, concrete, benefits that you mention against what is only a predictive argument. But I would say, for sure, that if a cup competition can be succesfully constructed inclusive of PL B teams then so can, and will, the lower leagues. The logic behind it would be indentical. It's just a matter of time. Now, it may be that many fans don't mind the idea of playing in a league partly composed of PL acadamy sides. There would be, after all, the same pluses that you've raised in connection with this cup. But, perhaps playing real teams might be more satisfying. Cripes, I don't usually get to argue for the traditionalist's point. It's quite refreshing! I don't think it is identical at all. Playing a PL U21 side in a cup game is very different to having these teams playing 46 games in a season. The return on investment would decrease, the novelty will decrease and you'd literally have to rewrite the constitution of the league for that to happen. It's a false equivalence. Happy for you to quote me or bookmark this, but I tell you now. The constitution of the EFL will not change to accommodate PL academy sides. There is no compelling argument to do this, either financially, morally or structurally. Something will need to have a fundamental change further up the pyramid for this to have any chance of happening. Even the European Super League wouldn't be enough of a change. |
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