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Post by davethegrave on Nov 20, 2022 20:40:48 GMT
I never considered Billy as a troll as such. I would give him the benefit of enormous doubt and consider him as rather old-fashioned in his thinking (he often referred to himself as a bit of a dinosaur). The ‘sharp’ replies he got, to use your term, long pre-dates our entry into the Football League, so I don’t think there’s any correlation with the influx of new supporters. I learnt quite quickly that you need a pretty thick skin to post opinions on this forum because you risk being riddled with bullets by those with a machine-gun mouth! Hm, the fact that despite all the many people that post on here you still knew who I was referring to tells its own story, I think. Going back to patience, you have more of it that I do. And good for you! But,'old-fashioned'? I'm 61 myself. I'm not sure older people should be able to use their age as an excuse for coming out with... certain kinds of things. It's not that hard to keep up with the world. It really isn't. Yes I was surprised that he knew who was the Only Troll. I'm probably regarded as one myself but some people are so self-important on here. The usual suspects?
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Post by Del on Nov 20, 2022 22:44:17 GMT
This is all quite fascinating !
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nonsuch
Youth Team Player
Posts: 131
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Post by nonsuch on Nov 21, 2022 9:01:16 GMT
All the people who post on this board (unless they are trolls or the occasional away fan) are Sutton supporters. I first went to watch Sutton with my uncle in 1965 when I was 6 years old - and I've followed them ever since. I was thinking earlier this morning that If Matt is still with us at the end of the season (and I very much hope he will be) we will have had two managers in 15 years - and that is something to be very proud of. However, anyone using this board ought to be able to express views without being attacked by 'the usual suspects'. IS4 has been driven off this board in recent months because of this - and regardless of whether you agreed with his views or not, he clearly cared about the club. Surely the point of a board like this is that people who all care about the club and ultimately want the best for the club, will have different views? Attacked by the usual suspects? Anyone one here can post their opinion, as anyone on here can disagree with that opinion. If a post on here is way in the realms of fantasy, it's totally right that any poster points that out. I hope you realise your paragraph above is hypocritical. You're basically saying that people are allowed to post stuff, but others don't have the right to reply. That's not right. Every single person does, as does every single person doesn't have to. Seriously, if you think any of this is an "attack", then you need to grow a thicker skin. And if anyone who posts on here can't take a difference of opinion, or in the case of is4, a clear indication of nonsense in that respect (to which I clearly stated how) then it's up to them whether to choose to continue or not. I've disgareed with as many as I've agreed with, but every single time i've qualified it. Just like I did with your post. Not like it matters, but I also left the forum because of the insults posted as replies, mainly by you. Calling other people posts “rubbish” and “utter nonsense” certainly doesn’t fit into a civilised dispute frame in my opinion. And no, you’re not argumenting always your position, you also use a lot of “what about”-ism and diversions when you are visibly wrong. At least Markf has argumented his stand and I respect that - do not criticise the club as they are in a tough spot. You instead pretend that black is white and viceversa and try to impose that on people.
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Post by Andy K on Nov 21, 2022 9:18:05 GMT
Attacked by the usual suspects? Anyone one here can post their opinion, as anyone on here can disagree with that opinion. If a post on here is way in the realms of fantasy, it's totally right that any poster points that out. I hope you realise your paragraph above is hypocritical. You're basically saying that people are allowed to post stuff, but others don't have the right to reply. That's not right. Every single person does, as does every single person doesn't have to. Seriously, if you think any of this is an "attack", then you need to grow a thicker skin. And if anyone who posts on here can't take a difference of opinion, or in the case of is4, a clear indication of nonsense in that respect (to which I clearly stated how) then it's up to them whether to choose to continue or not. I've disgareed with as many as I've agreed with, but every single time i've qualified it. Just like I did with your post. Not like it matters, but I also left the forum because of the insults posted as replies, mainly by you. Calling other people posts “rubbish” and “utter nonsense” certainly doesn’t fit into a civilised dispute frame in my opinion. And no, you’re not argumenting always your position, you also use a lot of “what about”-ism and diversions when you are visibly wrong. At least Markf has argumented his stand and I respect that - do not criticise the club as they are in a tough spot. You instead pretend that black is white and viceversa and try to impose that on people. I've never called anyone's post "rubbish" or "nonsense". I've called some people's points that (and probably more rarely than you'd like to imagine) because in my opinion they are, and I've always qualified that. Always. But as others, you're already arriving at a place of "no, you're not allowed to question me in any way unless I approve of that way". Sorry, but that's not how life works. It's funny how you, and others moaning here about being "attacked" never, ever point out where I've been visibily wrong. For what it's worth I'm always happy to be proved wrong, and when so, I acknowledge it. You may not like my direct approach, and you may not have a thick enough skin to deal with it. But if you don't reasonably challenge at the time and decide to have a moan afterwards, then it's quite obvious what the issue is. Personally I'd much prefer to discuss (and yes, even robustly if needed) our club, both on and off the field. Some people on here add so much to that discussion that we'd all be in a worse place if this forum didn't exist. This forum is always about the club, rather than individuals who post on it and if you think I've been insulting (which is directly what you have been saying), then feel free to report me to the moderators. There are others aside from me who can make a call on it and I've always pledged never to "mark my own homework". But to winge about it now in hindsight just to have a stab because I hurt your feelings sometime in the past (and in any case never personally) isn't a very good look. Let's actually get back to the football, right?
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nonsuch
Youth Team Player
Posts: 131
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Post by nonsuch on Nov 21, 2022 9:23:24 GMT
Not like it matters, but I also left the forum because of the insults posted as replies, mainly by you. Calling other people posts “rubbish” and “utter nonsense” certainly doesn’t fit into a civilised dispute frame in my opinion. And no, you’re not argumenting always your position, you also use a lot of “what about”-ism and diversions when you are visibly wrong. At least Markf has argumented his stand and I respect that - do not criticise the club as they are in a tough spot. You instead pretend that black is white and viceversa and try to impose that on people. I've never called anyone's post "rubbish" or "nonsense". I've called some people's points that (and probably more rarely than you'd like to imagine) because in my opinion they are, and I've always qualified that. Always. But as others, you're already arriving at a place of "no, you're not allowed to question me in any way unless I approve of that way". Sorry, but that's not how life works. It's funny how you, and others moaning here about being "attacked" never, ever point out where I've been visibily wrong. For what it's worth I'm always happy to be proved wrong, and when so, I acknowledge it. You may not like my direct approach, and you may not have a thick enough skin to deal with it. But if you don't reasonably challenge at the time and decide to have a moan afterwards, then it's quite obvious what the issue is. Personally I'd much prefer to discuss (and yes, even robustly if needed) our club, both on and off the field. Some people on here add so much to that discussion that we'd all be in a worse place if this forum didn't exist. This forum is always about the club, rather than individuals who post on it and if you think I've been insulting (which is directly what you have been saying), then feel free to report me to the moderators. There are others aside from me who can make a call on it and I've always pledged never to "mark my own homework". But to winge about it now in hindsight just to have a stab because I hurt your feelings sometime in the past (and in any case never personally) isn't a very good look. Let's actually get back to the football, right? Allow then for two simple and straightforward questions: 1. Was the summer transfer period beneficial to Sutton? A. YES B. NO 2. Is Kwame Thomas a useful striker this season? A. Yes B. No
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nonsuch
Youth Team Player
Posts: 131
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Post by nonsuch on Nov 21, 2022 9:30:08 GMT
I've never called anyone's post "rubbish" or "nonsense". I've called some people's points that (and probably more rarely than you'd like to imagine) because in my opinion they are, and I've always qualified that. Always. But as others, you're already arriving at a place of "no, you're not allowed to question me in any way unless I approve of that way". Sorry, but that's not how life works. It's funny how you, and others moaning here about being "attacked" never, ever point out where I've been visibily wrong. For what it's worth I'm always happy to be proved wrong, and when so, I acknowledge it. You may not like my direct approach, and you may not have a thick enough skin to deal with it. But if you don't reasonably challenge at the time and decide to have a moan afterwards, then it's quite obvious what the issue is. Personally I'd much prefer to discuss (and yes, even robustly if needed) our club, both on and off the field. Some people on here add so much to that discussion that we'd all be in a worse place if this forum didn't exist. This forum is always about the club, rather than individuals who post on it and if you think I've been insulting (which is directly what you have been saying), then feel free to report me to the moderators. There are others aside from me who can make a call on it and I've always pledged never to "mark my own homework". But to winge about it now in hindsight just to have a stab because I hurt your feelings sometime in the past (and in any case never personally) isn't a very good look. Let's actually get back to the football, right? Allow then for two simple and straightforward questions: 1. Was the summer transfer period beneficial to Sutton? A. YES B. NO 2. Is Kwame Thomas a useful striker this season? A. Yes B. No And I will give myself the answer on behalf of markf : “this was all we could afford so stop bringing this up, it may be harmful”. I respect that and I will no longer bring it up. But no “what about the defense” “what about the injuries” “Donovan isn’t scoring either” - these are not arguments
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Post by Andy K on Nov 21, 2022 10:21:43 GMT
Allow then for two simple and straightforward questions: 1. Was the summer transfer period beneficial to Sutton? A. YES B. NO 2. Is Kwame Thomas a useful striker this season? A. Yes B. No Why the binary choice? I'm sure you are aware that football isn't that straightforward. So if you want it simple, you've asked 2 questions that cannot be answered by a simple yes or no. And here is my reasoning 1. In terms of the situation regarding injuries, it's impossible to say. When you buy squad players you don't expect them to be playing week in week out, especially in the numbers we've had to use them. You'd expect them to be used as sustitutes to manage the squad, especially during busy periods and to cover for the occasional injury. You certainly don't use them as regulars, because that's what you've planned for. The summer transfer signings were signed (and this was stated by Matt a number of times) as longer term planning. He didn't know we'd lose our player of the season within the first 30 mins of the season, and then the large number of longer term injuries we'd had, which in all honesty is impossible to plan for. If you want to look at the more simple argument of the "have we signed better players than we lost", in my opinion you may have a point, but then that comes with a huge caveat, which is budget. Putting loan players we've lost to one side (as they are not "our players"), remember the players that went all signed as free transfers (or for peanuts) for Sutton and all whilst we were non league (with a couple of exceptions). Bouzanis replaced by Rose/Ward. I think that's fine. Hart for Wyatt, from what I've seen that's fine too. Gambin for Korboa, from what little we've seen also fine (as they are both quite down the pecking order), Thomas for Bennett possibly not so far, Neufville for Ajiboye I would have said yes although I think Josh hasn't been as bright as he was earlier in the season and thought he had a really poor game on Saturday. Pierre we can't say as we've hardly seen him and actually with a lot of the players, I think we've not seen enough of them to make an honest judgement. 2. If you look at the minutes he's played, then I can see why you think he isn't. But then again he's played a total of around 4 league games out of 19, and he's never played a full league 90 mins for us either. As I've said a number of times before, we don't see these players in training and I'm more than happy that Matt feels currently (as he did earlier in the season) that Thomas is useful enough to name in the team/squad. Obviously at the moment it's a bit of a moot point as we're stuck with our squad until at least January, and even then there will be very little quality on the free transfer market, and usually players command a larger fee if they are already contracted. But then we do have 6 strikers in total, so I'm not so sure that identifying one player as whether they are "a useful striker" and not the other 5, especially one who has had such limited game time is an especially pertinent question. I'd argue that you could only really make a judgement on players who have played half of the season in terms of minutes - which leaves the following players: Kizzi, Eastmond, Milsom, Neufville, John, Rowe, Wilson, Boldewijn, Randall, Rose and Bugiel. As the vast majority of those were with us last season, and some before that, that circles quite nicely to my first point.
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nonsuch
Youth Team Player
Posts: 131
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Post by nonsuch on Nov 21, 2022 11:09:28 GMT
Allow then for two simple and straightforward questions: 1. Was the summer transfer period beneficial to Sutton? A. YES B. NO 2. Is Kwame Thomas a useful striker this season? A. Yes B. No Why the binary choice? I'm sure you are aware that football isn't that straightforward. So if you want it simple, you've asked 2 questions that cannot be answered by a simple yes or no. And here is my reasoning 1. In terms of the situation regarding injuries, it's impossible to say. When you buy squad players you don't expect them to be playing week in week out, especially in the numbers we've had to use them. You'd expect them to be used as sustitutes to manage the squad, especially during busy periods and to cover for the occasional injury. You certainly don't use them as regulars, because that's what you've planned for. The summer transfer signings were signed (and this was stated by Matt a number of times) as longer term planning. He didn't know we'd lose our player of the season within the first 30 mins of the season, and then the large number of longer term injuries we'd had, which in all honesty is impossible to plan for. If you want to look at the more simple argument of the "have we signed better players than we lost", in my opinion you may have a point, but then that comes with a huge caveat, which is budget. Putting loan players we've lost to one side (as they are not "our players"), remember the players that went all signed as free transfers (or for peanuts) for Sutton and all whilst we were non league (with a couple of exceptions). Bouzanis replaced by Rose/Ward. I think that's fine. Hart for Wyatt, from what I've seen that's fine too. Gambin for Korboa, from what little we've seen also fine (as they are both quite down the pecking order), Thomas for Bennett possibly not so far, Neufville for Ajiboye I would have said yes although I think Josh hasn't been as bright as he was earlier in the season and thought he had a really poor game on Saturday. Pierre we can't say as we've hardly seen him and actually with a lot of the players, I think we've not seen enough of them to make an honest judgement. 2. If you look at the minutes he's played, then I can see why you think he isn't. But then again he's played a total of around 4 league games out of 19, and he's never played a full league 90 mins for us either. As I've said a number of times before, we don't see these players in training and I'm more than happy that Matt feels currently (as he did earlier in the season) that Thomas is useful enough to name in the team/squad. Obviously at the moment it's a bit of a moot point as we're stuck with our squad until at least January, and even then there will be very little quality on the free transfer market, and usually players command a larger fee if they are already contracted. But then we do have 6 strikers in total, so I'm not so sure that identifying one player as whether they are "a useful striker" and not the other 5, especially one who has had such limited game time is an especially pertinent question. I'd argue that you could only really make a judgement on players who have played half of the season in terms of minutes - which leaves the following players: Kizzi, Eastmond, Milsom, Neufville, John, Rowe, Wilson, Boldewijn, Randall, Rose and Bugiel. As the vast majority of those were with us last season, and some before that, that circles quite nicely to my first point. Now that was an argumented position and I accept that. Another thing that you did not mention but works still in the club favour is that on paper at least Kendall and Pierre looked like very good moves - but, as in the famous quote of Brian Clough, games are played on grass, not on paper. I must admit that I also exaggerated and let myself caught in this blame game - finding someone to be guilty for the bad results (and some really bad games). I hate to see others do that so I assume one may feel the same when I do it. I still do hope we can drop a couple of the non performing players in winter and sign at least an offensive player able to score goals as with Ajiboye - Olaofe - Benett we lost over 20 goals from last season in terms of firepower.
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Post by Andy K on Nov 21, 2022 11:41:55 GMT
I don't think there's ever an opportunity to blame one player for a bad result or bad game. If someone does a mistake and that leads to a goal, then the question you ask is "why didn't we score more". Or if we score but still lose then you could easily as "why did we concede?".
Of course we do have an offensive player who scores. Will Randall. He's already equalled his tally from last season and we know there is potential of more. And you can't compare the loss of goals for a complete season to one where we only reach the halfway point of the season on Boxing Day. And in terms of Ajiboye, you need to remember he scored 2 goals in the final 24 games of the season. Bennett scored 4 in the same period. So did Oloafe.
A better comparison is where we were after 19 games last season. We'd scored 28 and conceded 22. This season it's 17 and 25. So we're 11 goals shy up from and 3 goals worse at the back. On ratios that makes this:
2021/2 - After 19 games F 1.47 A1.16, end of the season F 1.5 A 1.15 2022/3 so far F 0.89 A 1.31
So obviously scoring is an issue at the moment which no one is denying, but conceding is also well up on last season too. This, in itself, shows that there is a broader issue in place. One which is significantly explained by injuries. Not just Goodliffe, but has been stated before, the current lack of any available attacking midfielder, in addition to offensive players not scoring at the same rate as before.
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Post by Del on Nov 21, 2022 12:46:26 GMT
Imagine if we signed a player on loan at National level and sent them back to their parent club as they were not good enough supposedly. I would not expect to resign that player at the club in which the club are playing at a higher level of football unless of course that particular player has improved immeasurably.
Perhaps i'm missing something here and we have a potential star on our books who just needs more time.
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Post by davethegrave on Nov 21, 2022 16:12:00 GMT
I've never called anyone's post "rubbish" or "nonsense". I've called some people's points that (and probably more rarely than you'd like to imagine) because in my opinion they are, and I've always qualified that. Always. But as others, you're already arriving at a place of "no, you're not allowed to question me in any way unless I approve of that way". Sorry, but that's not how life works. It's funny how you, and others moaning here about being "attacked" never, ever point out where I've been visibily wrong. For what it's worth I'm always happy to be proved wrong, and when so, I acknowledge it. You may not like my direct approach, and you may not have a thick enough skin to deal with it. But if you don't reasonably challenge at the time and decide to have a moan afterwards, then it's quite obvious what the issue is. Personally I'd much prefer to discuss (and yes, even robustly if needed) our club, both on and off the field. Some people on here add so much to that discussion that we'd all be in a worse place if this forum didn't exist. This forum is always about the club, rather than individuals who post on it and if you think I've been insulting (which is directly what you have been saying), then feel free to report me to the moderators. There are others aside from me who can make a call on it and I've always pledged never to "mark my own homework". But to winge about it now in hindsight just to have a stab because I hurt your feelings sometime in the past (and in any case never personally) isn't a very good look. Let's actually get back to the football, right? Allow then for two simple and straightforward questions: 1. Was the summer transfer period beneficial to Sutton? A. YES B. NO 2. Is Kwame Thomas a useful striker this season? A. Yes B. No I tend to just ignore most of what Andy K says.
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Post by halftimet on Nov 21, 2022 16:26:21 GMT
Andy who?
Could be due to his previous long term injury but Kwame seems unable to jump.
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Post by Andy K on Nov 21, 2022 16:38:29 GMT
I tend to just ignore most of what Andy K says. As you tend to ignore anything the club says online too, I'd say I was in good company.
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,245
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Post by kpinwp on Nov 21, 2022 19:12:14 GMT
OK, I can't decide if we've gone back to football or are still giving opinions about Andy? I can do either...
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Post by os on Nov 22, 2022 23:33:58 GMT
A Saudi controlled 'pub team' now thats a thought ? I am not sure that many on here have understood some of my recent posts, particularly the one about DoF, and the last one about being a Saudi 'pub team' Put simply everything at this club has changed in the past 12-18 months, basically every position above M.G has changed. We have a COO / COE / Commecial Manger / Project Manager / Football Consultant / DoF / Media has changed too etc etc. Our little club 'pub team' is now multi million pound commercial business, its future and its control does not lie with the old guardians who did such a fantasic job for so many years. The club is going through a transition, and decisions are now made thousands of miles away by its major shareholders.
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