kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,245
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Post by kpinwp on Feb 2, 2024 12:23:58 GMT
If we screw this match up let's take responsibility for it and not start blaming the Ref, for the love of God. A few marginal calls (and even a couple of big ones) against us do not create a failure of a season. A club does that to themselves. Anyway, we can win this. We need to win this. That's all there is to it. If it was Rock, I would bet good money on us losing. Paz, that is not a good start. Let's take responsibilty for our own short comings. They are what's got us into this situation. And however 'biased' against us any official may seem (operative word) to be, we have to rise above that. That's the world that we're living in. That's what will decide our fate. 'Not fair' gets you nowhere.
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Post by paz on Feb 2, 2024 13:19:15 GMT
We are playing quite well. Just got to take our chances. They are going to look for a draw on Sat and to try and nick it, as they will want to keep the gap there. It won't be an easy game I imagine. However, if we get one then the game should open up. I am going to go for a 2-0 win for the U's. In similar vein, after Tuesday I'm beginning to wonder whether we might have a better chance of away than home wins, catching teams on the break rather than breaking down stubborn defences at GGL? The double-issue programme mentioned that Doncaster beat Harrogate in a friendly last a week. Read into that what you will, probably very little. I agree, while we have no "good form" to compare anything to, our away form seems to be pretty much the same as home, with regards to being hard to beat. We need to win tomorrow Doncaster need to not lose. At least we have Smith back and with him and Omar in the box at least we will be more of a threat with our set pieces and direct balls.
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Post by Andy K on Feb 2, 2024 13:25:28 GMT
Beyond the obvious "must win", to me this is basically if we can't get 3 points tomorrow against a team in a downward spiral, then really we don't deserve to stay up.
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Post by paz on Feb 2, 2024 13:31:18 GMT
If it was Rock, I would bet good money on us losing. Paz, that is not a good start. Let's take responsibilty for our own short comings. They are what's got us into this situation. And however 'biased' against us any official may seem (operative word) to be, we have to rise above that. That's the world that we're living in. That's what will decide our fate. 'Not fair' gets you nowhere. I agree that if its not a free kick, we still need to defend it, if it's a foul on our player not given, we still need to track back and defend. So of course we are not where we are simply because of refs. But as we are where we are, fine margins count a lot and you expect consistency from refs. There has at times this season, been refereeing which has been inexcusable. Rock is a prime example. The ref last Tuesday was generally ok. But why did he blow after 5m 10 seconds of injury time? when we all saw Harrogate's time wasted during that time. Given how thorough they were at the start of the season, this is poor. Not allowing us to take that throw, and with such closely contested games, it can make a difference and ultimately time-wasting that last 5 minutes worked as a benefit for them. The ref should have played another minute at least. This is where I get annoyed, as they know that the winning team is likely to do this so he should have been checking.
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,245
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Post by kpinwp on Feb 2, 2024 13:59:24 GMT
Paz, that is not a good start. Let's take responsibilty for our own short comings. They are what's got us into this situation. And however 'biased' against us any official may seem (operative word) to be, we have to rise above that. That's the world that we're living in. That's what will decide our fate. 'Not fair' gets you nowhere. I agree that if its not a free kick, we still need to defend it, if it's a foul on our player not given, we still need to track back and defend. So of course we are not where we are simply because of refs. But as we are where we are, fine margins count a lot and you expect consistency from refs. There has at times this season, been refereeing which has been inexcusable. Rock is a prime example. The ref last Tuesday was generally ok. But why did he blow after 5m 10 seconds of injury time? when we all saw Harrogate's time wasted during that time. Given how thorough they were at the start of the season, this is poor. Not allowing us to take that throw, and with such closely contested games, it can make a difference and ultimately time-wasting that last 5 minutes worked as a benefit for them. The ref should have played another minute at least. This is where I get annoyed, as they know that the winning team is likely to do this so he should have been checking. Firstly, I don't expect consistency from Refs. It would be nice, but (again) that's not the world as it is. I won't go into whether they're actually as bad as disgruntled fans make them out to be. Although there's a long streak of permanent disappointment that stands on la curva behind me for whom, it seems, they are far worse. Every game. Teams who are winning will waste some time towards the end of matches. We do it (or used to when we used to win). And I imagine that managers and coaches actually teach them and incourage them to do this. Like the bad men that they are. At the start of the season when considerable amounts of time were being added on by Refs due to time wasting that wasn't 'right' with the fans either. As regards the final moments of the Harrogate match; does anyone seriously think that we were bang on to score an equaliser if two minutes more had been added, or that final throw-in had been given time for? Because I saw Harrogate controlling the end of that match very-nicely-thank-you. If you can't beat the oppo in 95 minutes, the odds are that you won't do it in an extra couple more. But, fundamentally, this culture of always pointing the significant finger at the Ref (and I know it will never goaway ) for match failure simply takes the focus of responsibilty away from where it truly lies, which is with the management and the team. Which helps no-one and aids nothing
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markf
Top Performer
Posts: 3,310
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Post by markf on Feb 2, 2024 14:47:31 GMT
I don't think anyone on here has blamed the ref's for our current situation. Yes, Mr Rock had a very poor game at Gillingham and as a result we lost Harry for 6 matches. His involvement in those matches, may or may not have resulted in us taking more points, we will never know. But that's not blaming Rock for our position, it's just stating fact!
Your argument about all teams wasting time is true but it is down to the refs to do something to stop it. They were given more powers this season to do so but not all have embraced it, eg. Quinn at Mansfield booting the ball to the halfway line after the whistle had gone while already on a yellow.
Whether or not we would have scored from that long throw on Tuesday is not the point. The five minutes added is a minimum (it wasn't enough anyway) and time was wasted during it. Had the ref done his job correctly, Belshaw would have been booked early in the second half as he was actually wasting time in the first half. But the game was 0-0 so the ref let it go. At least I am in consistent in that I was yelling about it in the first half as well as the second. A yellow card on the third such occasion would have stopped it. But this ref was too lazy to do that. A shame as, other than a blatant corner we should have had in the second half, I thought he had a pretty decent game. He blotted that performance by not clamping down on their 'keeper and failing to recognise the obvious time wasting by not adding sufficient time on.
Jamie Butler used to do it at Sutton and I used to yell at him to get on with it. He picked up a few yellow cards for it, quite rightly.
So, your constant harping about U's fans blaming ref's for our situation is frankly way off the mark.
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,245
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Post by kpinwp on Feb 2, 2024 14:56:32 GMT
I don't think anyone on here has blamed the ref's for our current situation. Yes, Mr Rock had a very poor game at Gillingham and as a result we lost Harry for 6 matches. His involvement in those matches, may or may not have resulted in us taking more points, we will never know. But that's not blaming Rock for our position, it's just stating fact! Your argument about all teams wasting time is true but it is down to the refs to do something to stop it. They were given more powers this season to do so but not all have embraced it, eg. Quinn at Mansfield booting the ball to the halfway line after the whistle had gone while already on a yellow. Whether or not we would have scored from that long throw on Tuesday is not the point. The five minutes added is a minimum (it wasn't enough anyway) and time was wasted during it. Had the ref done his job correctly, Belshaw would have been booked early in the second half as he was actually wasting time in the first half. But the game was 0-0 so the ref let it go. At least I am in consistent in that I was yelling about it in the first half as well as the second. A yellow card on the third such occasion would have stopped it. But this ref was too lazy to do that. A shame as, other than a blatant corner we should have had in the second half, I thought he had a pretty decent game. He blotted that performance by not clamping down on their 'keeper and failing to recognise the obvious time wasting by not adding sufficient time on. Jamie Butler used to do it at Sutton and I used to yell at him to get on with it. He picked up a few yellow cards for it, quite rightly. So, your constant harping about U's fans blaming ref's for our situation is frankly way off the mark. Er, with respect Mark, the idea of you pointing at someone else for 'constant harping' is rather droll. Know thyself?
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Post by paz on Feb 2, 2024 14:57:54 GMT
I agree that if its not a free kick, we still need to defend it, if it's a foul on our player not given, we still need to track back and defend. So of course we are not where we are simply because of refs. But as we are where we are, fine margins count a lot and you expect consistency from refs. There has at times this season, been refereeing which has been inexcusable. Rock is a prime example. The ref last Tuesday was generally ok. But why did he blow after 5m 10 seconds of injury time? when we all saw Harrogate's time wasted during that time. Given how thorough they were at the start of the season, this is poor. Not allowing us to take that throw, and with such closely contested games, it can make a difference and ultimately time-wasting that last 5 minutes worked as a benefit for them. The ref should have played another minute at least. This is where I get annoyed, as they know that the winning team is likely to do this so he should have been checking. Firstly, I don't expect consistency from Refs. It would be nice, but (again) that's not the world as it is. I won't go into whether they're actually as bad as disgruntled fans make them out to be. Although there's a long streak of permanent disappointment that stands on la curva behind me for whom, it seems, they are far worse. Every game. Teams who are winning will waste some time towards the end of matches. We do it (or used to when we used to win). And I imagine that managers and coaches actually teach them and incourage them to do this. Like the bad men that they are. At the start of the season when considerable amounts of time were being added on by Refs due to time wasting that wasn't 'right' with the fans either. As regards the final moments of the Harrogate match; does anyone seriously think that we were bang on to score an equaliser if two minutes more had been added, or that final throw-in had been given time for? Because I saw Harrogate controlling the end of that match very-nicely-thank-you. If you can't beat the oppo in 95 minutes, the odds are that you won't do it in an extra couple more. But, fundamentally, this culture of always pointing the significant finger at the Ref (and I know it will never goaway ) for match failure simply takes the focus of responsibilty away from where it truly lies, which is with the management and the team. Which helps no-one and aids nothing If we go into the last game of the season, and we need a 1-0 win, and the referee does not give us a stone wall penalty decision. Then this will be what sends us down, not just the fact we have been a poor team. If it was not an issue then VAR would not exist. (Not that I would support VAR in its current format either) I think we agree that if you are a poor side, which we have been most of this season, then you leave yourself more vulnerable to bad refereeing. But I just don't think it should be excused. They need to look into making the refs better, their standard has been awful. As for the blame-the-ref culture you talk of, yes this certainly exists a lot in football, but perhaps this is why it has become so poor, because criticism is usually just seen as unhappy fans, rather than genuine observation.
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,245
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Post by kpinwp on Feb 2, 2024 15:30:38 GMT
Firstly, I don't expect consistency from Refs. It would be nice, but (again) that's not the world as it is. I won't go into whether they're actually as bad as disgruntled fans make them out to be. Although there's a long streak of permanent disappointment that stands on la curva behind me for whom, it seems, they are far worse. Every game. Teams who are winning will waste some time towards the end of matches. We do it (or used to when we used to win). And I imagine that managers and coaches actually teach them and incourage them to do this. Like the bad men that they are. At the start of the season when considerable amounts of time were being added on by Refs due to time wasting that wasn't 'right' with the fans either. As regards the final moments of the Harrogate match; does anyone seriously think that we were bang on to score an equaliser if two minutes more had been added, or that final throw-in had been given time for? Because I saw Harrogate controlling the end of that match very-nicely-thank-you. If you can't beat the oppo in 95 minutes, the odds are that you won't do it in an extra couple more. But, fundamentally, this culture of always pointing the significant finger at the Ref (and I know it will never goaway ) for match failure simply takes the focus of responsibilty away from where it truly lies, which is with the management and the team. Which helps no-one and aids nothing If we go into the last game of the season, and we need a 1-0 win, and the referee does not give us a stone wall penalty decision. Then this will be what sends us down, not just the fact we have been a poor team. If it was not an issue then VAR would not exist. (Not that I would support VAR in its current format either) I think we agree that if you are a poor side, which we have been most of this season, then you leave yourself more vulnerable to bad refereeing. But I just don't think it should be excused. They need to look into making the refs better, their standard has been awful. As for the blame-the-ref culture you talk of, yes this certainly exists a lot in football, but perhaps this is why it has become so poor, because criticism is usually just seen as unhappy fans, rather than genuine observation. I would say that the scenario you present would be a combination of that Ref decision built upon a cumulative, season-long, failure on behalf of the club. The latter being by far the more consequential. But we're getting a bit forensic, here. I agree that the standard of refereeing is not as high as it should be. But on any given match day you just have to deal with what you're given. The rest is excuse-making. And ask any two sets of fans, one whose team has just won and one whose team has just lost, as to the performance of the Ref in that match and you'll most likely get two very different sets of answers. I understand what you mean about criticism vs genuine observation. But so very much of that observation is club-orientated subjectivity.
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kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,245
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Post by kpinwp on Feb 2, 2024 16:21:00 GMT
Sorry for the big, off-piste, 'Ref' digression, everyone. That was probably my fault. I'll shut up, now.
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Post by cheshire on Feb 2, 2024 16:49:09 GMT
Ask Stockport fans what they think of the standard of refereeing this season-don't mind betting they will have plenty of moans too...however it seems they win plenty of matches despite the decisions they are (or aren't) given.
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markf
Top Performer
Posts: 3,310
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Post by markf on Feb 2, 2024 17:15:49 GMT
I don't think anyone on here has blamed the ref's for our current situation. Yes, Mr Rock had a very poor game at Gillingham and as a result we lost Harry for 6 matches. His involvement in those matches, may or may not have resulted in us taking more points, we will never know. But that's not blaming Rock for our position, it's just stating fact! Your argument about all teams wasting time is true but it is down to the refs to do something to stop it. They were given more powers this season to do so but not all have embraced it, eg. Quinn at Mansfield booting the ball to the halfway line after the whistle had gone while already on a yellow. Whether or not we would have scored from that long throw on Tuesday is not the point. The five minutes added is a minimum (it wasn't enough anyway) and time was wasted during it. Had the ref done his job correctly, Belshaw would have been booked early in the second half as he was actually wasting time in the first half. But the game was 0-0 so the ref let it go. At least I am in consistent in that I was yelling about it in the first half as well as the second. A yellow card on the third such occasion would have stopped it. But this ref was too lazy to do that. A shame as, other than a blatant corner we should have had in the second half, I thought he had a pretty decent game. He blotted that performance by not clamping down on their 'keeper and failing to recognise the obvious time wasting by not adding sufficient time on. Jamie Butler used to do it at Sutton and I used to yell at him to get on with it. He picked up a few yellow cards for it, quite rightly. So, your constant harping about U's fans blaming ref's for our situation is frankly way off the mark. Er, with respect Mark, the idea of you pointing at someone else for 'constant harping' is rather droll. Know thyself? If that last remark applies to me, it certainly applies to you. Read my post and indeed any other on this season's matches, not once have I blamed poor refereeing for our losses. There have been key decisions that have gone against us that may have affected the result (Crawley, Swindon and Gillingham) but as stated above , we will never know.
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Post by Big Al on Feb 3, 2024 4:13:33 GMT
So we are now placing the blame on the ref before the actual game - hmmm. Sure the standard of refereeing is poor but the fact is it is not biased - just poor. All teams time waste and all suffer bad decisions. We are where we are through a mixture of the failure of the team to perform combined in my opinion with poor coaching and management for half the season and the reluctance of the Board to act more quickly on changing the latter more quickly.
We still have a glimmer of hope with the new coach having brought in some new players and ideas but if we do not win games we will go down and that will not be attributable to poor refereeing.
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markf
Top Performer
Posts: 3,310
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Post by markf on Feb 3, 2024 6:33:24 GMT
I think one poster has written a hypothetical scenario.
Certainly not "we".
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Post by garethl on Feb 3, 2024 7:20:58 GMT
So we are now placing the blame on the ref before the actual game - hmmm. Sure the standard of refereeing is poor but the fact is it is not biased - just poor. All teams time waste and all suffer bad decisions. We are where we are through a mixture of the failure of the team to perform combined in my opinion with poor coaching and management for half the season and the reluctance of the Board to act more quickly on changing the latter more quickly. We still have a glimmer of hope with the new coach having brought in some new players and ideas but if we do not win games we will go down and that will not be attributable to poor refereeing. We’re now arguing against arguments that haven’t been made . . . Literally not a single poster who would blame referees for our position in the table!
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