The Telegraph article

[newfmkr]

Sept 4, 2024 23:04:35 GMT os said:

This is a complex thread, I think there is more than one argument going on here, even venturing into the fabric of modern society itself.

But on the subject in hand, I have not been convinced that transgender participation in female sport / football is the right thing. That might be a minority view on this board, but judging by other platforms it is the majority view. Just because I hold that view, it doesn't make me a transphobe or anti LGBT and the same is true for the majority of people who also hold that view. The problem comes when all of a sudden I find myself to be a fascist anti gay right wing bigot who wants to burn the unclean at a stake. That type of classification is totally unfair and wrong, and I think this was the point that 'paz' was making in an earlier post with regards to authoritarian, and narratives.

My relative has transitioned to female, they work in a care home, and show their female caring side and all that goes with it, but she also has the strength of an ox and can lift patients in and out of bed with one arm. To me she is a women, but I really wouldn't want my daughter to be caught up in a sliding tackle with her.

You can shoot me now!

that's exactly what happens though. You question any single aspect and you're thrown in with racists and whoever else they see fit. This may be a question born of of total ignorance, but if the medicine etc negates almost all advantages, why are there far less cases of trans men playing in male decent level sport? If it's because they started life as women, and didn't go through puberty, and therefore were smaller and less strong etc, doesn't that make the argument than trans women have a massive head start in women's sport correct? I know of a fencer, and a long distance runner who are trans men who compete at a good level, but certainly haven't heard of any others. I personally found the boxing at the Olympics unwatchable, I simply cannot see how it's progressive, because it looked a little bit like a bloke beating 7 shades out of women, and on live TV.

[boomboom]

Sept 4, 2024 23:04:35 GMT os said:

My relative has transitioned to female, they work in a care home, and show their female caring side and all that goes with it, but she also has the strength of an ox and can lift patients in and out of bed with one arm. To me she is a women, but I really wouldn't want my daughter to be caught up in a sliding tackle with her.

Given that there are just 72 Transgender women playing football, the chances of your daughter playing against one is remote in the extreme so I wouldn't worry about that happening.   If I were you, I'd be much more concerned about her facing an extremely beefy, or one who has reputation for foul play, opponent muscular of the 2.5 million.

[boomboom]

As others have alluded, the participation of Transgender women in women's sports is a complex issue and, for some, highly emotive. It's a matter I've hitherto paid scant attention to but we're now on page 8 and I'm not fully convinced about the arguments put forward by either side.

Taking organised football in the UK as example, it seems to me there are essentially four alternatives:

1. Ban Transgender women from competing full stop. This would be discriminatory and so be, IMO, at best regrettable and at worst unacceptable. Could any fair and open-minded person disagree with that?

2. Establish a competition or competitions specifically for Transgender women. Given there are only 72 such registered players, presumably spread across the country, it's difficult to see how that could possibly be realistic and viable.

3. Allow Transgender women to play in men's football.

4. Allow Transgender women to play in women's football, perhaps with a cap on their number at any individual club.

Should one reject options 1 and 2, a choice then needs to be made between 3 and 4. I strongly believe that should not be made on the basis of anecdote, personal experience, partial evidence or subjective views. Rather, it should be based on science, through an independent and rigorous analysis of the data, using appropriate statistical techniques, to determine whether, overall, the attributes of Transgender women footballers are more similar to those playing men's or women's football.

[paz]

Sept 5, 2024 6:20:27 GMT boomboom said:

2. Establish a competition or competitions specifically for Transgender women. Given there are only 72 such registered players, presumably spread across the country, it's difficult to see how that could possibly be realistic and viable.

This is a presumption that all trans people support trans athletes competing in woman's sports. I have an online friend who is trans (transitioned via opp)  and she does not agree with it. So it's highly likely that fewer trans people bother to get into sports because of this, so an amicable solution may even bring more trans people into sports. 

[boomboom]

Sept 5, 2024 7:07:17 GMT paz said:

Sept 5, 2024 6:20:27 GMT boomboom said:

2. Establish a competition or competitions specifically for Transgender women. Given there are only 72 such registered players, presumably spread across the country, it's difficult to see how that could possibly be realistic and viable.

This is a presumption that all trans people support trans athletes competing in woman's sports. I have an online friend who is trans (transitioned via opp)  and she does not agree with it. So it's highly likely that fewer trans people bother to get into sports because of this, so an amicable solution may even bring more trans people into sports. 

Not quite.    It's based on the presumption that there's an insufficiently large number of trans women across  the country who would wish to participate in Transgender women-only competitions to ensure a viable national structure.   That presumption would need to be tested by the FA undertaking a survey of the relevant population. 

My presumption, of course, could be wrong  but my expectation is that the odd competition here and there in, say, London and a number of the metropolitan areas might be realistic but not elsewhere.    The corollary of different structures across the country is, I'd imagine, a whole can of worms!

[billy]

[kpinwp]

Sept 4, 2024 23:04:35 GMT os said:

This is a complex thread, I think there is more than one argument going on here, even venturing into the fabric of modern society itself.

But on the subject in hand, I have not been convinced that transgender participation in female sport / football is the right thing. That might be a minority view on this board, but judging by other platforms it is the majority view. Just because I hold that view, it doesn't make me a transphobe or anti LGBT and the same is true for the majority of people who also hold that view. The problem comes when all of a sudden I find myself to be a fascist anti gay right wing bigot who wants to burn the unclean at a stake. That type of classification is totally unfair and wrong, and I think this was the point that 'paz' was making in an earlier post with regards to authoritarian, and narratives.

My relative has transitioned to female, they work in a care home, and show their female caring side and all that goes with it, but she also has the strength of an ox and can lift patients in and out of bed with one arm. To me she is a women, but I really wouldn't want my daughter to be caught up in a sliding tackle with her.

You can shoot me now!

On balance, I disagree with you regarding the sport aspect. But I largely agree with the rest of what you say. For anyone to characterise a considered and nuanced position on this matter as black and white 'transphobia' is a matter of both intransigence and simplisitic thinking. Throwing 'bigot' rocks at those who don't completely (operative word) agree with you is not the way to win someone over to a different point of view. Far more likely to do the contrary.

Edit; however well meaning those 'rocks' may be!

[oohaah]

Sept 5, 2024 11:35:37 GMT billy said:

Great song Billy, but has nothing to do with this discussion and therefore should have no place on this thread.

[suttonpodcast]

Interesting many of those who are so angry that we "have taken away a woman's place in the team and given it to a man" are now wishing we go bankrupt and fold as a club, thereby denying a few hundred women & girls a chance to play.

It could almost be believed that they don't actually care about anything other than not letting a Trans player play.

Personally I am satisfied there are people who have spent a lot of time discussing the issue and have decided on the current rules. Whilst the handful of cases of people getting injured due to the different physical aspects are obviously horrendous, it does happen in the game generally. I have to admit not looked deeply into it but I am quite sure if there were a range of examples they would be mentioned by now (not on here btw). It is slightly annoying as I have been keeping back that actually the greater danger to women in football is they are about 5 times more likely to suffer a bad ACL injury and nobody knows why.

[kpinwp]

Sept 5, 2024 14:32:25 GMT suttonpodcast said:

Interesting many of those who are so angry that we "have taken away a woman's place in the team and given it to a man" are now wishing we go bankrupt and fold as a club, thereby denying a few hundred women & girls a chance to play.

It could almost be believed that they don't actually care about anything other than not letting a Trans player play.

Personally I am satisfied there are people who have spent a lot of time discussing the issue and have decided on the current rules. Whilst the handful of cases of people getting injured due to the different physical aspects are obviously horrendous, it does happen in the game generally. I have to admit not looked deeply into it but I am quite sure if there were a range of examples they would be mentioned by now (not on here btw). It is slightly annoying as I have been keeping back that actually the greater danger to women in football is they are about 5 times more likely to suffer a bad ACL injury and nobody knows why.

Did I miss someone saying 'they wish we go bankrupt and fold as a club'?

Occasionally people seem to consider that if you do not want what I think is good for the club then you do not want what is good for the club. Which is not necessarily the case.

[suttonpodcast]

Not one here, sorry if I gave that impression.

[sallycat]

Sept 5, 2024 14:32:25 GMT suttonpodcast said:

Interesting many of those who are so angry that we "have taken away a woman's place in the team and given it to a man" are now wishing we go bankrupt and fold as a club, thereby denying a few hundred women & girls a chance to play.

It could almost be believed that they don't actually care about anything other than not letting a Trans player play.

Personally I am satisfied there are people who have spent a lot of time discussing the issue and have decided on the current rules. Whilst the handful of cases of people getting injured due to the different physical aspects are obviously horrendous, it does happen in the game generally. I have to admit not looked deeply into it but I am quite sure if there were a range of examples they would be mentioned by now (not on here btw). It is slightly annoying as I have been keeping back that actually the greater danger to women in football is they are about 5 times more likely to suffer a bad ACL injury and nobody knows why.

Indeed - I'm sure Lucy wouldn't mind me mentioning that she spent a lot of time searching for a goalkeeper and Blair was the only one who worked out. Someone else pointed out earlier that we have no other 'keepers on the books. So whom exactly is she keeping out of the team?

A lot of people seem to think it's fairer to ask trans women to play in men's teams. That would be awful. Not just because trans women would struggle to compete against cis men, but also because trans women are women. They are not men. In fact, to legally/medically transition you are required to live as the gender you identify as for a certain amount of time. How are they supposed to do that if we force them to live as the gender that they are not?

[sallycat]

Sept 4, 2024 23:04:35 GMT os said:

they work in a care home, and show their female caring side and all that goes with it, but she also has the strength of an ox and can lift patients in and out of bed with one arm.

As a quality and compliance manager for a group of care homes OS, if I ever caught anyone doing that they would be suspended and investigated immediately 😂

[kpinwp]

Sept 5, 2024 17:49:24 GMT sallycat said:

Sept 5, 2024 14:32:25 GMT suttonpodcast said:

Interesting many of those who are so angry that we "have taken away a woman's place in the team and given it to a man" are now wishing we go bankrupt and fold as a club, thereby denying a few hundred women & girls a chance to play.

It could almost be believed that they don't actually care about anything other than not letting a Trans player play.

Personally I am satisfied there are people who have spent a lot of time discussing the issue and have decided on the current rules. Whilst the handful of cases of people getting injured due to the different physical aspects are obviously horrendous, it does happen in the game generally. I have to admit not looked deeply into it but I am quite sure if there were a range of examples they would be mentioned by now (not on here btw). It is slightly annoying as I have been keeping back that actually the greater danger to women in football is they are about 5 times more likely to suffer a bad ACL injury and nobody knows why.

Indeed - I'm sure Lucy wouldn't mind me mentioning that she spent a lot of time searching for a goalkeeper and Blair was the only one who worked out. Someone else pointed out earlier that we have no other 'keepers on the books. So whom exactly is she keeping out of the team?

A lot of people seem to think it's fairer to ask trans women to play in men's teams. That would be awful. Not just because trans women would struggle to compete against cis men, but also because trans women are women. They are not men. In fact, to legally/medically transition you are required to live as the gender you identify as for a certain amount of time. How are they supposed to do that if we force them to live as the gender that they are not?

Yes, a few people have suggested that it would be fairer to ask trans women to play in men's teams. Personally I don't think it would be. But, I don't think anyone has suggested that we force trans women to live as a gender that they are not. People have suggested that there may be a few areas of living, in this instance competitive sport, in which trans womens' rights may need to be subordinate to biological womens' rights, if there is a conflict of interest. Which matter has been the greater part of this debate.

I think you are taking a particular and universalising from it.

[billy]

an abundance of caution

First time i've ever heard this expression.Could someone please explain to this confused old man what it means?

Thanks