kpinwp
1st team Player
Posts: 1,248
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Post by kpinwp on Feb 19, 2021 18:36:32 GMT
So as Dover refuse to play,they should be expelled, or should they be allowed to pick and choose when they play? As OS said in the "Dover game is off" thread... "Any Club without just cause failing to fulfil an engagement to play a Competition match on the appointed date shall for each offence be liable to expulsion from the Competition and/ or such other disciplinary action the Board may determine, including the deduction of up to a maximum of three points from the offending Club’s record, any expenses incurred by their opponents, and a fine." So it would really be down to Dover to show "just cause" for refusing to play. It's an unprecedented situation so it may well be arguable, but in my view, it's a risky road to go down... I think what is singular, here, is that Dover are not just defaulting or failing to play certain matches due to some irregularities. They are refusing to complete a season. I don't see how the NL can show tolerance for that. Allow that and the whole structure for the rest of the season becomes unstable. I am working on the assumption that the League's primary goal is and must be the continuation and completion of the season. Firstly, they have consulted the clubs and the democratic vote has been in favour of continuation. Secondly, that surely must be their default position, anyway. |
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Post by os on Feb 19, 2021 19:20:23 GMT
As OS said in the "Dover game is off" thread... "Any Club without just cause failing to fulfil an engagement to play a Competition match on the appointed date shall for each offence be liable to expulsion from the Competition and/ or such other disciplinary action the Board may determine, including the deduction of up to a maximum of three points from the offending Club’s record, any expenses incurred by their opponents, and a fine." So it would really be down to Dover to show "just cause" for refusing to play. It's an unprecedented situation so it may well be arguable, but in my view, it's a risky road to go down... I think what is singular, here, is that Dover are not just defaulting or failing to play certain matches due to some irregularities. They are refusing to complete a season. I don't see how the NL can show tolerance for that. Allow that and the whole structure for the rest of the season becomes unstable. I am working on the assumption that the League's primary goal is and must be the continuation and completion of the season. Firstly, they have consulted the clubs and the democratic vote has been in favour of continuation. Secondly, that surely must be their default position, anyway. I think you are right, but initially it looks like the league are just going to apply the rules as they are, and that is missing one match, and so on. At some point that position has to give, and I guess Dover will appeal under the 'just reason' clause etc. I think a lot depends on what the other 6 clubs do, I hear Kings Lynn have said they can't play past 27th Feb. |
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Post by Andy K on Feb 19, 2021 20:39:52 GMT
Not quite OS. They said they can't confirm they can play beyond the 27th but they are looking at ways in which they can. A very different approach to Dover.
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Post by garethl on Feb 19, 2021 20:50:48 GMT
Quote here seems to suggest no more beyond 27/2 unless something changes but not listened to the interview.
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Post by os on Feb 19, 2021 20:55:42 GMT
Not quite OS. They said they can't confirm they can play beyond the 27th but they are looking at ways in which they can. A very different approach to Dover. Do you know if playing non paid players constitutes a breach of league rules for playing an under strength side? It was a conversation I was having this afternoon, and I don't know the answer. |
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Post by Andy K on Feb 19, 2021 22:46:22 GMT
Not quite OS. They said they can't confirm they can play beyond the 27th but they are looking at ways in which they can. A very different approach to Dover. Do you know if playing non paid players constitutes a breach of league rules for playing an under strength side? It was a conversation I was having this afternoon, and I don't know the answer. Not sure to be honest. I think if paid players are furloughed then they are not allowed to train or play so can't be picked. My guess (and it is a guess!) Is that the league won't be in a position to act on those rules. |
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Post by os on Feb 19, 2021 23:33:42 GMT
Do you know if playing non paid players constitutes a breach of league rules for playing an under strength side? It was a conversation I was having this afternoon, and I don't know the answer. Not sure to be honest. I think if paid players are furloughed then they are not allowed to train or play so can't be picked. My guess (and it is a guess!) Is that the league won't be in a position to act on those rules. I am guessing without reading all the rules, that the league has a 'Just Cause' to vary the rules for themselves should they choose to do so, and like you I think they will choose to do so at some point in the near future ? |
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Post by Amber Aleman on Feb 20, 2021 7:45:06 GMT
I suspect the problem the National League have (and it won't be unique to them) is that their rules and constitution simply don't cater for the unprecedented situation in which we now find ourselves.
I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with some sort of fudge whereby Dover (and maybe other NL clubs) sit out the rest of the season and have their results expunged but are allowed to start next season at this level. As things stand there won't be any promotion from Step 2 this year and the NL, having already lost Macclesfield for this season, won't want to be any lighter next term.
Meanwhile Dorking Wanderers (and possibly other Step 2 clubs) are talking about a legal challenge to the 'null and void' vote. I'm not a lawyer, but if the ballot was constitutional (and I don't recall it being challenged when it was announced) then I'd expect them to be on a hiding to nothing.
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Post by mca on Feb 20, 2021 8:19:01 GMT
Bad financial management is at the core of this ,so they should not be allowed to get away with it careful what you wish for, nearly every club below the championship is 1 bad decision from being in financial strife. Nobody budgeted for 0 fans for over a year. Not saying Dover have handled it well, but a bit of empathy might not go a miss because it could be Sutton at some point in the future and fans shouldn't lose their club, especially at the moment |
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Post by halftimet on Feb 20, 2021 8:38:02 GMT
Do you know if playing non paid players constitutes a breach of league rules for playing an under strength side? It was a conversation I was having this afternoon, and I don't know the answer. Not sure to be honest. I think if paid players are furloughed then they are not allowed to train or play so can't be picked. My guess (and it is a guess!) Is that the league won't be in a position to act on those rules. Has anyone thought about this? Is it possible to loan players from NLS or NLN if their club takes them off furlough? |
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Post by scorpioeyes on Feb 20, 2021 11:41:21 GMT
I suspect the problem the National League have (and it won't be unique to them) is that their rules and constitution simply don't cater for the unprecedented situation in which we now find ourselves. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with some sort of fudge whereby Dover (and maybe other NL clubs) sit out the rest of the season and have their results expunged but are allowed to start next season at this level. As things stand there won't be any promotion from Step 2 this year and the NL, having already lost Macclesfield for this season, won't want to be any lighter next term. Meanwhile Dorking Wanderers (and possibly other Step 2 clubs) are talking about a legal challenge to the 'null and void' vote. I'm not a lawyer, but if the ballot was constitutional (and I don't recall it being challenged when it was announced) then I'd expect them to be on a hiding to nothing. It would be very unfair if the leaders ( based on points per game) at Step 2 were denied promotion to our league. |
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Post by sallycat on Feb 20, 2021 13:30:42 GMT
They've played fewer than half of their scheduled games. That's not enough to say they're definitely the best team in the league and deserving of promotion. Could be the games they haven't played yet are the ones against the stronger sides. Could be they were about to run out of momentum and go on a big decline. How many times in a normal season is the team that's top at Christmas nowhere near it by the end of the season? It happens a fair amount. This isn't like last season; they just haven't played enough games to award anything based on what they have done.
That's how I see it, anyway. I'm sure not everyone will agree
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Post by VCLXI on Feb 20, 2021 14:06:32 GMT
Yes I'd agree with that. If our league was decided now by points per game (off the cuff I don't know where Sutton would be) I think promotion/relegation would be very unfair. Plus so many teams have games in hand over others.
I'm not qualified enough to give too much of an opinion but as it stands with not even half a season being played if you scrap it now have the same teams as this season.
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Post by Andy K on Feb 20, 2021 14:42:04 GMT
I suspect the problem the National League have (and it won't be unique to them) is that their rules and constitution simply don't cater for the unprecedented situation in which we now find ourselves. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with some sort of fudge whereby Dover (and maybe other NL clubs) sit out the rest of the season and have their results expunged but are allowed to start next season at this level. As things stand there won't be any promotion from Step 2 this year and the NL, having already lost Macclesfield for this season, won't want to be any lighter next term. Meanwhile Dorking Wanderers (and possibly other Step 2 clubs) are talking about a legal challenge to the 'null and void' vote. I'm not a lawyer, but if the ballot was constitutional (and I don't recall it being challenged when it was announced) then I'd expect them to be on a hiding to nothing. It would be very unfair if the leaders ( based on points per game) at Step 2 were denied promotion to our league. The clubs have voted to make the season null and void. So it will be as if the season never happened. So no PPG. |
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Post by Andy K on Feb 20, 2021 14:49:16 GMT
Not sure to be honest. I think if paid players are furloughed then they are not allowed to train or play so can't be picked. My guess (and it is a guess!) Is that the league won't be in a position to act on those rules. Has anyone thought about this? Is it possible to loan players from NLS or NLN if their club takes them off furlough? I expect this is a possibility. Aside from the financial implications, one of the negative outcomes of ending the season like that is progression for a younger player will be affected. They are going to be less likely to get a move up the pyramid due to the lack of football and the lack of opportunity to impress. Players such as Tommy Wright and Josh Taylor for example will probably miss out on a move upwards for this reason. I expect a loan player from the N/S could happen, although usually it's rare for players to be loaned upwards rather than downwards, and clubs would have to pay 100% of the players wages at a time when their income is more limited than normal. Of course by the same token, players at our level and above won't be able to loan players out to teams where the league isn't happening and I expect most loans in those league will have to be terminated early. They may have decided their own fate (which I don't blame them for), but there will be knock on effects around the pyramid. There are of course 4 clubs who can't furlough their players yet as they are still in the trophy - Darlington, Hornchurch, Oxford City and Hereford. |
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