North and South Null and Void but we continue

[kpinwp]

Mar 1, 2021 22:32:06 GMT Del said:

I feel a little sad for Dover not having the finances to be able to play out their season and like all clubs they expected grants to continue or spectators to return.

Neither has happened, Dover haven't gone bust & have had to do what they have done to survive. Whether that means they will stay in the National League next season remains to be decided but is no fault of their supporters who could be the ultimate losers in this situation.

I haven't checked the Dover Fans' Forum since their Chairman's original 'not playing anymore' statement. But the fans there, as well as backing his decision, did seem to be largely reconciled to demotion or expulsion, as I recall. To their credit, I would say. That being the rule.

(I'm not always this dogmatic. Honest.)

[sallycat]

I suppose you're right - there isn't really a solution. Maybe the answer is to come down hard now bearing in mind clubs presumably have some sort of right to appeal, which the league could then look at on a case by case basis.

[Andy K]

The League will probably have to follow the rule book - which means a hearing for every game that Dover have not played (and a cost to Dover for each hearing). Of course the first hearing of that chronologically would be Dover presenting their case as to why they refused to play us. But since then they've missed 4 games I think.

Dover may argue that the league rules have not allowed them financially to compete. The league response should be pretty clear that none of the other 22 sides have taken the same action, regardless on how they voted.

I think we will see points deductions or the like before we see Dover expelled, but if Dover carry on the way they have rather than even suggesting looking at alternative paths, the league really shouldn't have any option but to expel them, mostly because it's not fair on the other 22 clubs taking part (aside from the obvious league rules Dover are breaking)

[garethl]

Mar 1, 2021 22:32:06 GMT Del said:

I feel a little sad for Dover not having the finances to be able to play out their season and like all clubs they expected grants to continue or spectators to return.

Neither has happened, Dover haven't gone bust & have had to do what they have done to survive. Whether that means they will stay in the National League next season remains to be decided but is no fault of their supporters who could be the ultimate losers in this situation.

Not really quite reality. In fact you could argue that Dover are far better placed to finance it than most. Certainly than we are. They have an owner who could afford it but is choosing not to. He has already been making noises on cutting his personal losses for some time. A few years back he was talking league football if I recall correctly (and that would have been even more money to plough in). It’s of course his right to cut expenditure but essentially Dover at this level are not viable without him putting cash in. The debt point he makes is silly too as he puts money in as share capital and that is the only reason they aren’t in debt. Yes the pandemic will likely increase his money put into the club a bit more than an ordinary season but in percentage terms on overall outlay it will be relatively small. But last season they were already needing big money on a monthly basis from the owner. In my opinion they can’t start next season in this division as they gain a competitive advantage by cutting costs whilst others play. The sensible thing in my mind is they start in the South and make it 3 divisions of 22.

[davep]

I don't think Dover should be expelled from the National League Premier - but they shouldn't be allowed to gain an advantage for next season (by saving on expenditure this season). Consequently, I think that they should have to start next season on minus 10 points.

[brisfitboy]

Mar 2, 2021 13:39:12 GMT davep said:

I don't think Dover should be expelled from the National League Premier - but they shouldn't be allowed to gain an advantage for next season (by saving on expenditure this season). Consequently, I think that they should have to start next season on minus 10 points.

What will that achieve apart from telling every other club in the National League that we’ve saved shedloads of dosh whilst you mugs kept going and lost money into the bargain. Plus the fact that next season their toys will be flung out the pram a lot earlier. Come on now🤦‍♂️

[jr]

Don’t forget that a couple of years ago Dover spent over £2.1m in ground improvements. I suspect they over stretched themselves and Parmenter is using Covid as an excuse

[sallycat]

Why 10 points? Is that something written into the rules or just a random number?

[Andy K]

Mar 2, 2021 14:04:54 GMT jr said:

Don’t forget that a couple of years ago Dover spent over £2.1m in ground improvements. I suspect they over stretched themselves and Parmenter is using Covid as an excuse

Anyone who still has sympathy with Dover, I urge them to read this article from August last year twohundredpercent.net/dover-athletic-high-risk-stakes/

Dover have decided NOT to enter administration even back then (probably because of the 10 point deduction they would have suffered) but all the signs were there before this whole recent funding issue came up that Dover financially were in serious trouble. Even now, with the threat of relegation probably gone, they are still not going for administration and accept the penalty and are now trying to hold the league (and by definition other clubs) to ransom isn't due to the pandemic (although it certainly accelerated the process) but due to Dover themselves.

I will always have sympathy for the fans of the club who more often than not are going to be the innocent party in all of this, but I strongly feel that Dover should be expelled (via the proper channels). Other clubs in this division with arguably smaller incomes (such as Maidenhead for example) are doing fine and not pushing above their means.

We should not be in a position where the entire integrity of a competition should be at question simply because of a loose cannon.

[Andy K]

Mar 2, 2021 14:53:24 GMT sallycat said:

Why 10 points? Is that something written into the rules or just a random number?

There isn't a precedent. The rules from what I can see is that if a club has become insolvent, they get a 10 point deduction. This could happen if Dover say they cannot pay their bills, whether or not they go into administration, if they are using that as a reason why they have not participated in fixtures.

Dover could also end up being deducted 3 points for every game they have failed to turn up to (and the opposing club could also be awarded 3 points).

There's nothing in the rules about the league setting a 10 point deduction at will.

[Amber Aleman]

It does look now as if Dover are out on a limb, so relegation perhaps becomes more likely than a mere points deduction. National League South is a club short, so there would be a certain neatness in them dropping a level. If it's confirmed that there's no promotion from Step 2 this year then the top division could start next season with 22 clubs. Some might welcome the lighter fixture list.

It's still possible that the league could throw the book at Dover and kick them out completely.

[Stewart]

[Andy K]

I can see Dover so voting for this!

In all seriousness, I can't see this flying at all.

[sallycat]

Perhaps the main reason for having regionalisation at that level is to keep travel costs at a sustainable level. If clubs are struggling to continue now then how will they manage to meet those additional costs, even with fans? Bearing in mind some of those clubs would only have expected crowds of a few hundred before the pandemic, and a lot of those people will also have been financially affected and therefore less able to travel to away matches once that's allowed again.

I'm sure those advocating for this idea know an awful lot more than I do about this sort of thing, but I'm curious about how it would work because travel is expensive and also the additional time needed can affect players who have full time jobs meaning you might struggle to keep players who are happy with the wages step 2 clubs are able to pay.

Obviously it's not being suggested as a long term change, so maybe it's just something clubs are able to budget for as a one-off thing but surely it will have a longer term impact on playing squads if it excludes a lot of those who aren't able to commit to the extra time needed for travel unless paid more?

[Andy K]

Mar 3, 2021 15:41:36 GMT sallycat said:

Perhaps the main reason for having regionalisation at that level is to keep travel costs at a sustainable level. If clubs are struggling to continue now then how will they manage to meet those additional costs, even with fans? Bearing in mind some of those clubs would only have expected crowds of a few hundred before the pandemic, and a lot of those people will also have been financially affected and therefore less able to travel to away matches once that's allowed again.

I'm sure those advocating for this idea know an awful lot more than I do about this sort of thing, but I'm curious about how it would work because travel is expensive and also the additional time needed can affect players who have full time jobs meaning you might struggle to keep players who are happy with the wages step 2 clubs are able to pay.

Obviously it's not being suggested as a long term change, so maybe it's just something clubs are able to budget for as a one-off thing but surely it will have a longer term impact on playing squads if it excludes a lot of those who aren't able to commit to the extra time needed for travel unless paid more?

The vote to end the season in the N/S was pretty close. Those who voted to carry on (which are mainly top half sides) want to try anything not to miss the chance of promotion to the national league. I expect this is led by Dorking Wanderers and the like.