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Post by os on Oct 27, 2015 19:23:17 GMT
Do you know the best thing to make more of an atmosphere at home? Ironically it's segregation. The issue at home is that fans are dotted around the ground whilst on Saturday we were all penned in one place. In terms of "No atmosphere due to precious people getting upset when people have tried to create some in the past, usually no away supporters and people more interested in chatting than watching the game and getting behind the team" - I'm sorry, but what's the solution? Ban people from talking to each other? Banning people from being offended by some of the things shouted out? We're meant to be an inclusive club and every supporter has the right to support our team the way they fell most comfortable with otherwise they just will stop coming. There are a few things I don't personally like about how some of our supporters support our team, but I'm certainly not arrogant enough to tell them otherwise, and if they are not doing any harm or overstepped the mark of decency then I have no right to either. What I can do is choose not to join into that. A good example of this was the constant shouts of "midget keeper" in the 3 games against Hemel. I thought they were tedious, but if those supporters want to do that then that's their choice. Away games generally have a better atmosphere because most of the away support are in the same part of the ground and there is more of a sense of sticking together as the "minority". But telling people how they can or can't support their club, and they are doing it wrong because they are not singing or chanting or shouting abuse at players/officials is a sure fire way of wanting people NOT to come back. I think you make some good points, what I think people need to remember is that our club along with many others has put a lot of effort in changing the old fashioned penned in, blokey type atmosphere. To one which is more family and community friendly. Having grown up with football (well still growing up), I like the chanting / singing etc it does add to the occasion and can even spur the team on. But that simply isn't for everyone, the old, young, female and disable audience will nearly all struggle in the type of situation we had on Saturday.
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Post by Stewart on Oct 28, 2015 9:10:09 GMT
Do you know the best thing to make more of an atmosphere at home? Ironically it's segregation. The issue at home is that fans are dotted around the ground whilst on Saturday we were all penned in one place. In terms of "No atmosphere due to precious people getting upset when people have tried to create some in the past, usually no away supporters and people more interested in chatting than watching the game and getting behind the team" - I'm sorry, but what's the solution? Ban people from talking to each other? Banning people from being offended by some of the things shouted out? We're meant to be an inclusive club and every supporter has the right to support our team the way they fell most comfortable with otherwise they just will stop coming. There are a few things I don't personally like about how some of our supporters support our team, but I'm certainly not arrogant enough to tell them otherwise, and if they are not doing any harm or overstepped the mark of decency then I have no right to either. What I can do is choose not to join into that. A good example of this was the constant shouts of "midget keeper" in the 3 games against Hemel. I thought they were tedious, but if those supporters want to do that then that's their choice. Away games generally have a better atmosphere because most of the away support are in the same part of the ground and there is more of a sense of sticking together as the "minority". But telling people how they can or can't support their club, and they are doing it wrong because they are not singing or chanting or shouting abuse at players/officials is a sure fire way of wanting people NOT to come back. I think you make some good points, what I think people need to remember is that our club along with many others has put a lot of effort in changing the old fashioned penned in, blokey type atmosphere. To one which is more family and community friendly. Having grown up with football (well still growing up), I like the chanting / singing etc it does add to the occasion and can even spur the team on. But that simply isn't for everyone, the old, young, female and disable audience will nearly all struggle in the type of situation we had on Saturday. Whoops you added female I'm waiting for the backlash
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medibot
1st team Player
Posts: 1,341
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Post by medibot on Oct 29, 2015 0:39:37 GMT
How about the backlash from people who are annoyed that people feel they can speak for disabled people based on a sample of one or speak for women based on their presumption of the opinion of one person?
If I put all the ignorant old farts into the same binary group and decided to tell them how I thought they should choose to enjoy watching Sutton United, at least I would have far more of them to gauge my lazy and ill thought out opinion than people who like to speak for other social groups.
If you think "women" and the "disabled" or the "young" or the "old" are all one group rather than individual people with their own preferences and opinions then I'm not sure the last thirty odd years have really happened for you.
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Post by sallycat on Oct 29, 2015 16:22:07 GMT
Very well said. However, those groups do contain a certain number of people with specific needs - to use an obvious example, a certain number of disabled people use wheelchairs and require access to places where they can safely watch the game, appropriate toilet facilities, etc. The crux of the matter, as I think you are saying Nick, is that while these needs have to be acknowledged and addressed, the only way to be sure that you are doing so is to ask those people what they need - and not just one or two people from that group. I really have no idea why OS thinks that segregation is not good for female supporters (perhaps he thinks all that testosterone in a small space is going to make us wilt?) but while some aspects of Aldershot's match day experience, just like ours, are not female-friendly, the segregation was certainly not one of them. All I know is that as a female supporter (and therefore a minority) I have never once been asked my opinion about how a club can be more female-friendly, while a lot of male fans seem to come up with ideas without consulting us!
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Post by os on Oct 29, 2015 22:37:59 GMT
Very well said. However, those groups do contain a certain number of people with specific needs - to use an obvious example, a certain number of disabled people use wheelchairs and require access to places where they can safely watch the game, appropriate toilet facilities, etc. The crux of the matter, as I think you are saying Nick, is that while these needs have to be acknowledged and addressed, the only way to be sure that you are doing so is to ask those people what they need - and not just one or two people from that group. I really have no idea why OS thinks that segregation is not good for female supporters (perhaps he thinks all that testosterone in a small space is going to make us wilt?) but while some aspects of Aldershot's match day experience, just like ours, are not female-friendly, the segregation was certainly not one of them. All I know is that as a female supporter (and therefore a minority) I have never once been asked my opinion about how a club can be more female-friendly, while a lot of male fans seem to come up with ideas without consulting us! I wasn't going to answer 'medibots' rather eloquently put post, but I will come back on yours. At no time did I suggest that all females would have a problem with the type of atmosphere we experienced on Saturday, and the same can be said of any other group. However there are a number of people within those groups who find it difficult. Yes there are also disabled people that require special arrangements, however there is a significant number of people that are sandwiched in the middle. It is not practical to ask each and every person what their requirements are, but it is possible to football more friendly for them. I am not sure if you were with your child, however imagine how difficult that situation would be for a young family with a baby in a buggy. A parent of a child with Autism, and remember this is huge spectrum with varying needs. Or a person of advancing years who finds the atmosphere too much for them, you simply cannot ask all these 'individuals' what their needs are, and shepherd them away to some enclosure somewhere. If you want more people to come to football you have to set out to make the experience welcoming by default, not as a added extra if you ask. Many people will not ask, they will simply not come again, and that is why our sport remains mainly single male orientated. What ever 'medibot' may think these people do not want to be housed under a tin roof by the side of the pitch. I think we have a long way to go in football, but I do agree with 'Sallycat' that female views do need to be taken into account.
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medibot
1st team Player
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Post by medibot on Oct 30, 2015 1:18:30 GMT
"These people."
Again you try and speak for others and group them into happy little sections to fit your own ideals rather than realising that people, whatever their age, gender, social group or physical or mental disability, are individuals and still have their own opinions and preferences that they may differ from somebody else who might fit into the same demographic as them.
Your passion to make everybody feel accepted is admirable but the way you go about it leaves you lumping hugely different people into very limited groups.
I feel that when you try and bodge people together into a set demographic and target them you actually just isolate people.
Not all men want to watch the game in the same way, not all women want to watch the game in the same way, not all people with disabilities or children, or older people or younger people want to watch it the same way but we've all decided to watch Sutton United and that should be supported.
Look at our most successful promotional days, the community days where everybody at a primary school in the borough or everybody living near the ground is given free tickets or another incentive to attend and is then made to feel welcome regardless of anything other than being local to the club and qualifying for that particular initiative when they arrive at GGL.
This is a superb idea that has consistently worked and boosted attendances and is something that you and others have invested time and effort into with great success but I worry people have missed why it works so well.
It works because it is all encompassing and includes all under the simple premise of watching their great local football club but when they arrive at GGL; there's a family stand, a terrace where the singers go, a terrace where they don't, a main stand to sit in, a bar, food, disabled access, welcoming fans, no racism, friendly staff etc and because of that everybody can find their place and enjoy watching football in their own way and not because they've been told this is how they should enjoy the game as "a woman" as an "old person" as somebody who's "disabled" etc
Provide the tolerant and welcoming environment and let people make their own minds up as to how they want to watch and enjoy the game.
Weirdly, Aldershot managed to be the only club where they'd decided not to cater for the more traditional terrace based supporter and just provide seats and a weirdly hostile over stewarded atmosphere.
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Post by os on Oct 30, 2015 1:45:18 GMT
"These people." Again you try and speak for others and group them into happy little sections to fit your own ideals rather than realising that people, whatever their age, gender, social group or physical or mental disability, are individuals and still have their own opinions and preferences that they may differ from somebody else who might fit into the same demographic as them. Your passion to make everybody feel accepted is admirable but the way you go about it leaves you lumping hugely different people into very limited groups. I feel that when you try and bodge people together into a set demographic and target them you actually just isolate people. Not all men want to watch the game in the same way, not all women want to watch the game in the same way, not all people with disabilities or children, or older people or younger people want to watch it the same way but we've all decided to watch Sutton United and that should be supported. Look at our most successful promotional days, the community days where everybody at a primary school in the borough or everybody living near the ground is given free tickets or another incentive to attend and is then made to feel welcome regardless of anything other than being local to the club and qualifying for that particular initiative when they arrive at GGL. This is a superb idea that has consistently worked and boosted attendances and is something that you and others have invested time and effort into with great success but I worry people have missed why it works so well. It works because it is all encompassing and includes all under the simple premise of watching their great local football club but when they arrive at GGL; there's a family stand, a terrace where the singers go, a terrace where they don't, a main stand to sit in, a bar, food, disabled access, welcoming fans, no racism, friendly staff etc and because of that everybody can find their place and enjoy watching football in their own way and not because they've been told this is how they should enjoy the game as "a woman" as an "old person" as somebody who's "disabled" etc Provide the tolerant and welcoming environment and let people make their own minds up as to how they want to watch and enjoy the game. Weirdly, Aldershot managed to be the only club where they'd decided not to cater for the more traditional terrace based supporter and just provide seats and a weirdly hostile over stewarded atmosphere. I am not actually sure if you are actually agreeing with me now? 'These People' = The group of individuals that felt unconfortable in last Saturdays setup, that is a wide range of people, no herding people into any catagory other than that.
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Post by Del on Oct 30, 2015 7:55:22 GMT
The only good thing about Saturdays segregation was that all Sutton fans were together and able to make sufficient noise to be able to encourage & support the team. Apart from that it was a grim throw back to the 60's !
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tonyd
1st team Player
Posts: 1,494
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Post by tonyd on Oct 30, 2015 8:33:05 GMT
Weirdly, Aldershot managed to be the only club where they'd decided not to cater for the more traditional terrace based supporter and just provide seats and a weirdly hostile over stewarded atmosphere. If you thought that was a "wierdly hostile over stewarded atmospere" you haven't been to many Premiership games! My own experience was that I bought an away end ticket from the away end kiosk, put it in my pocket and never had to produce it again. The stewards opened the terracing as soon as they realised they had been misinformed as to the number of away supporters and were not in any way officious. Meanwhile before the kick-off and at half time both sets of supporters mingled around the unsegregated tea hut by the entrance without any interference from stewards (or problems between supporters). If you read the programme or the ATFC forum before the match, you would have seen that the discussions about closing parts of the terracing around the ground to reduce stewarding costs, so it wasn't solely aimed at us. Personally, I enjoyed the day apart, of course, from the result!
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Post by guildrover on Oct 30, 2015 11:07:23 GMT
Jeez, I do wonder what the hell people expect. It is an old ground and they provided seating and terracing (eventually) and toilets and a tea hut. From what I could tell the facilities they provided were no worse than what we provide at GGL.
I don't know about their disabled facilities as I don't use them but doubt they were any worse than ours TBH (what are ours? Just a disabled toilet at the Collingwood Road end from what I can tell).
In what way was it a throw back to the 60s? Because we were segregated? I found all the stewards friendly that I dealt with and didn't feel intimidated or threatened at all from either their staff or their fans. I think you are doing them a disservice there.
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jr
1st team skipper
Posts: 2,169
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Post by jr on Oct 30, 2015 11:23:05 GMT
The stewards were friendly. I just hate it when you get lied to. I was told the terraces were closed due to Health and Safety reasons yet I bought a terrace ticket on the turnstiles. The Health and Safety card is used too easily and it was patently obvious to all that this was not the case.
Also another minor point, I'm certain that the away figure attendance was incorrect as there were a number of U's fans in the ground before the away turnstile was opened and they went through the home turnstile. Also 2 fans were led from the Aldershot end to our terrace!
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Post by Andy K on Oct 30, 2015 11:56:36 GMT
Personally speaking, I found the Rec a very welcoming place. Friendly staff all over the place, the mingling of the fans in the bar was fine, not a jot of trouble, a miscalculation which was resolved. I've been to worse staffed places in our division many times. Aside from the result, it was actually a pretty enjoyable experience.
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dof
1st team skipper
Posts: 2,099
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Post by dof on Oct 30, 2015 12:26:15 GMT
....we thoroughly enjoyed our day out at Aldershot FC ( apart from the result, can't blame the stewards for that). I really do enjoy FA Cup matches, its a shame will now have to wait another 12 months. Arrived a little later than planned due to parking. Went to the designated gate, spoke to the Steward who pointed us in right direction.....and headed to bar at 2.50pm. Served with a friendly smile, why oh why does Bitter have to go through a chiller? Missed the KO by a minutes showed our tickets and was directed to the stand, plenty of atmosphere and support for the team no aggro.!! Saw McKinnon and his dad follow us up the steps, I thought at H/T I wonder if has bought his boots!! I do sometimes wonder at times some of the comments on this forum are there to stir up debate, especially when we enter the realms of gender. Looking forward to our next game, now where did I put my cap and walking stick.!!
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Post by sallycat on Oct 30, 2015 15:43:36 GMT
I wasn't going to answer 'medibots' rather eloquently put post, but I will come back on yours. At no time did I suggest that all females would have a problem with the type of atmosphere we experienced on Saturday, and the same can be said of any other group. However there are a number of people within those groups who find it difficult. Yes there are also disabled people that require special arrangements, however there is a significant number of people that are sandwiched in the middle. It is not practical to ask each and every person what their requirements are, but it is possible to football more friendly for them. I am not sure if you were with your child, however imagine how difficult that situation would be for a young family with a baby in a buggy. A parent of a child with Autism, and remember this is huge spectrum with varying needs. Or a person of advancing years who finds the atmosphere too much for them, you simply cannot ask all these 'individuals' what their needs are, and shepherd them away to some enclosure somewhere. If you want more people to come to football you have to set out to make the experience welcoming by default, not as a added extra if you ask. Many people will not ask, they will simply not come again, and that is why our sport remains mainly single male orientated. I agree with most of this, but I'm still genuinely curious as to why you thought those conditions were unsuitable for (some) women, in particular. It could easily be that I'm missing something a lot of women (but not me) are thinking. I'm autistic myself, actually, and hear what you're saying. Like a lot of autistic people, I get easily overwhelmed in packed, crowded places. So I definitely get that one. I wouldn't bring a buggy to a football game myself, but I understand that some people have no choice. For example, I assume that a lot of people with physical disabilities or bad backs wouldn't be able to carry a baby in a sling or baby carrier like I do. There are so many things to think about when you are trying to be inclusive! I'm a strong advocate for trying one's best to cater for everyone as far as possible, even if there are so many different things to take into account for so many different people. It's a very hard job. Like you say, one has to think these things through beforehand - the key is not to try and ask/cater to every individual in advance, which isn't possible. It's having the flexibility to make adjustments when needed.
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Post by Del on Oct 30, 2015 16:54:26 GMT
Jeez, I do wonder what the hell people expect. It is an old ground and they provided seating and terracing (eventually) and toilets and a tea hut. From what I could tell the facilities they provided were no worse than what we provide at GGL. I don't know about their disabled facilities as I don't use them but doubt they were any worse than ours TBH (what are ours? Just a disabled toilet at the Collingwood Road end from what I can tell). In what way was it a throw back to the 60s? Because we were segregated? I found all the stewards friendly that I dealt with and didn't feel intimidated or threatened at all from either their staff or their fans. I think you are doing them a disservice there. I said it before the game.There was absolutely no need for segregation.We have been there before without segregation and there has been no hint of trouble.Non League football is all about fans from both sides mixing and not tribalism.
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